CP_414

Keep track of his Walks and Home runs too... He's basically playing defense-independent baseball. I think you guys are on to something - a new stat, we can call it DMAWBS (defense may as well be sleeping): DMAWBS = (BB + SO + HR) / PA Dunn eclipsed the 50% level in 2004: 51.2% So far this year he's on pace to do it again: 50.9% Compare with McGwire, who in '98 had a 56.8% DMAWBS, then a whopping 57.9% in 2000 and 55.5% in '01. Don't forget to include ground rule doubles.

He thought Dusty would let him throw 123 pitches.

I'm not advocating trading all these guys, just want to start some conversations about possibilities. I agree that it would take a lot to trade Aramis. I wouldn't rule it out though. If you can get a prospect you fully expect to be a superstar and respend his $11M on another very productive player you make the team better. I'm willing to trade anyone to make the team better.

We typically talk about who we want to go get. Who do we want to move and what can we get for them? Maddux: Is he the best pitcher available? With the Braves back in the hunt Smoltz probably won't be moved. Same with Schmidt and the Giants. Can we create a bidding war for Maddux. Can he net us LaRoche from LA? Villenueva from Milwaukee? Walker: Detroit has been rumored to be interested. Toronto, Oakland, and LA have also been mentioned. Milwaukee could use him as a part-time 3B and backup at 1B and 2B if they don'e get Shea. Who do you want for Todd? Williamson: Can we get Freel from the Reds? Do they need another reliever? Houston has been rumored to be interested. Just about every team in the playoff hunt could use another relief arm. What is the maximum vaule we could get for Williamson alone? Pierre: His recent hot streak must have raised his value. The White Sox need CF help. Taveras isn't giving Houston much. Colorado has been rumored to be interested. Can we package Pierre and Williamson to get Fields from the Sox? Can we get one of the Rockies stud infield prospects? Rusch: Will anyone take him? Please? Neifi: See Rusch. Nevin: Shouldn't bring much of a return back, but there should be teams interested. Jones: Probably won't be traded. Cubs could take advantage while his value is high and move him for a nice return. The Yankees have expressed interest early in the season, but Matsui is about to come back. Aramis: Probably won't be moved, but could bring back a big-time prospect. If you can get a LaRoche or Fields in another trade do you move Aramis? Maddux, Aramis, and Williamson for LaRoche and Billingsly? Aramis for Kendrick (if you get Fields or LaRoche)? Dempster: Everyone needs bullpen help. Are the Cubs regretting his contract? Prior: This would be selling low. He shouldn't be moved at the deasline.

Are the Braves out of it? 4.5 back in the Wild Card race. I'm surprised Milwaukee didn't give up more for Wickman. Turnbow has been killing them. I agree about Abreu.

It would make sense that if you have a lower payroll that you have a lower chance of winning, unless.......of course you are the Cubs. I think we may be arguing the same point here, but the one thing I will say, I don't believe that lower attendance will mean a lower payroll. Although I would not put it past the Cubune to use this excuse for lowering payroll. Make no mistake about it, the Cubune could spend as much money as either the Yanks or BoSox, they just choose not to, and are just waiting for lightling in the bottle to hit. Unfortunately, this is not a way to build a winner! BCB I think in recent years the Tribune has made a financial committment good enough for the Cubs to win. Would it be nice if they added another $50M to the payroll? Sure. The problem is the guys spending the money, not the amount being spent. The Tribune have spent the money needed to put a competetive team on the field. Hendry, MacPhail, and Baker have NOT put a competetive team on the field. If not going to games gets those 3 guys fired and doesn't cause the Tribune to lower payroll, I'm all for it.

This is exactly the kind of thinking the Cubune wants, and I am sure that you also believe heavily in "fiscal responsibility". The true problem is management and how they run it, and if there is one thing this current regime is proving over and over again is....... team success is not= to team payroll, most team this is true for, but not this one. As can be seen by this team currently trying to play baseball every day. Until the Cubune stops trying to be so fiscally responsible, maybe they will finally figure out how to put a winning team on the field. Until then, I am pretty sure this current crop of management team members cannot figure this out under their current situation. We either increase payroll substantially over the next few years to sign much better quality players(which I am pretty sure Jim Hendry cannot identify) or go the route of the Marlins and sell everyone and everything off and start from scratch. Unfortunaely, neither one of these senarios will happen, and most definetly the latter of the 2 will not happen because it would have an adverse effect on attendance, which the Cubune will not do. BCB I never said team success is = to team payroll. I said if you have a lower payroll you have a LOWER chance to win. Of course you still need to spend the money wisely. However, which team has a better chance of winning the one than can make $10M errors or the one who can't? Why are the Yankees and Red Sox in the playoffs every year? The Yankees sure don't spend too wisely, but they can spend so much. The Mets are the best team in the NL because they could afford to go get Pedro, Glavine, Beltran, Delgado, and Wagner. They also did a good job of developing some of their own talent. No, money doesn't equal wins, but it sure helps a lot.

It's still a good time to go to games. I hope Cub fans never stop going to games. It would only result in a lower payroll and a lower chance to win.

Feel free to jump in and add whatever you would like to the discussion. It's not intended to be a private conversation.

Thanks fer yer kind werds Perfesser Woo! I ser hopes my Rgement now meets wit yor aprovel! :lol: You assertation that Sammy carried the team through it's dismal years is funny! Oh, to be the King of Crap like Sammy was! And if I'm not allowed to assume some things (i.e., Sammy's visable change in body shape and dramatic drop in performance could have been caused by his quick w/d from some unknown substances) then you are not allowed to assume some things. Namely that we wouldn't have made it to the playoffs in '98 and '03 without him (however horribly those two events turned out in the end). We would have had someone palying right field, agreed? Maybe we would have not only made the palyoffs, but gone on to win the WS w/o Slammin Sammy - we just don't know . . . And so I guess neither one of us really knows the truth, eh? Sammy is God - Sammy is a tool. All we know for sure is that not one GM wanted him enough to even ask nicely fpor his services! What's that say about your hero??? I'm uncomfortable with all the worship - that's all . . . You think we would have made the playoffs without Sosa in 98? If so we can just end this conversation because there is no point in going further.

How long until the Padres get Hillenbrand?

OK - many folks on this board claim that there is a mighty anti-Sosa bias abound, but I think it is just the opposite. I think many posters here (see the thread on the top 5 Cubs of all time, in Baseball Discussions) are all too quick to ignore the person that Sammy was (arrogant, self-infatuated, and prone to putting himself above the team) in favor of being blinded by his home run total. A total, I might add, that many believe was perhaps inflated thanks to "other" substances. A good player doesn't rise to stardom and and fall from grace that quick unless there is more to the story (see: Bonds, Barry) How can Mr S. go from being a world class slugger to someone not one GM wanted to put on their roster (save for the incentive laden, non-guarenteed contract offered up by the Nats)? Maybe I'm being too tough on the old man, and maybe you are being too easy on him . . . And, BTW - you never answered MY question: When should I pick you up for Sammy's crowning in Cooperstown??? First of all, congrats on putting together a thought out argument beyond "he's a tool." And no, I would rather not attend the induction ceremony with you, but thanks for the offer. Now, until there is any proof that Sosa was a steroids user any speculation that he was juiced is unfounded. He has no Balco, no grand jury indictment, no positive test. Maybe you think he used, maybe lots of other people do as well, but there simply isn't proof. As for the fact that he is arrogant, I hate to break it to you but he is not the only one. Do you dislike all arrogant athletes or just Sosa? Do you like Ben Wallace? He refused to reenter a game in Orlando this year. Is he arrogant? Do you like Miguel Cabrera? Is he a "tool" for being arrogant? Was it arrogant of Kerry Wood to talk it upon himself to smash Sammy's boombox? Is Todd Walker self-infactuated for focusing so much on what the announcers say about him? If you rip Sammy for being arrogant and self-infactuated the same standard must apply to the rest of the league. How did Sosa ever hurt the team by "putting himself above the team?" The fact is for a long time he was the team. They didn't have much talent around him and he performed everyday. He carried us to the playoffs in 1998, and we wouldn't have made it without him in 2003 either. For this Cubs fan, it's a big deal to be in the playoffs 2 times in 5 years, and Sammy is a HUGE reason why. To respond to the post below yours: It is one thing for other teams fans to dislike Sammy, but the fans who he performed for on a daily basis owe him more loyalty. Until there is proof he juiced, I believe his fans, Cubs fans, should stand by their guy. BTW Springfield - You STILL havn't explained what you meant when you said my defense of Sosa was "uncomfortable."

Arod is injured. That's why he didn't play. No he's not he played in the eight and ninth inning of that game and played the entire game today. No, he was injured. He was expected to miss two or three day, but he's playing through it. I know about his toe. But, Torre even said and I'm paraphrasing here that the reason that Arod was not starting was due to his three errors and give him a chance to get his head back in it. On "Mike and Mike In the Morning", that is what they were saying about the situation. And Mike Greenberg applauded Torre for not hiding and saying it was injury related. He may have said that, but I saw a clip of Torre on ESPN News after the X-Rays came up negative saying he wasn't starting A-Rod because he wanted to give him a day for his toe. He then said he might be able to pinch hit (which he did), and that he should be back in the lineup Wednesday.

No, my friend, it's not gay (not that there's anything wrong with that!). And you're right, I'm wrong - Sammy is the greatest player ever to walk on the field. In fact, I'll drive you to Cooperstown for his induction ceremony. When should I pick you up? So what's "uncomfortable" about it? You never answered my question.

But Mr. Woo, I wasn't arguing. I just put forth my opinion on an ex-Cub player - and then you went after me. And, BTW - the level of man-love you are displaying for a washed up hitter is, truthfully, more than a little uncomfortable . . . I didn't go after you. I went after your argument/statement/whatever you want to call it when you called the man a "tool." What is "uncomfortable" about a Cubs fan defending one of the greatest Cubs players ever against yet another unwarrented and unjustified criticism? It's because I'm a man and he's a man so I can't support him? I don't understand what you are saying there. Is it gay?

Hey Ronnie, get off your high horse and calm down a bit. I get my opinion and you get your's . . . that's what makes this country great, eh? And skipping out early on his last game as a Cub was not MR. Sosa's only sin. I could list them all here, but I think you might impune my integrity again :roll: I think the one of us on a "high horse" is the one who feels the need to rip a Hall of Fame player for saying he wants to play baseball again. Far too many Cub fans seek every opportunity to rip Sosa and will do so regardless of what Sammy does. It's old and tired. Don't be so sensative. By pointing out that you're argument was basically "he's a tool cause I say so and it's plain and simple" I was hardly impuning your intergrity. I was pointing out how absurd your argumnent is.

Are you related or a family friend to him? I'm ot kidding or being sarcastic. It's an actual question. No. But I do think he is a productive player. I agree. But, he did have a bad game on Sunday and is not immune to a benching after that kind of game. Sort of like Arod not starting yesterday after his 3 error game. It's hard to argue Theriot's chance to start. Neifi on the other hand is another story, but he does have very good numbers against Oswalt that warranted his start yesterday(even though I hate him in there). Neifi has good numbers vs. Oswalt so Neifi starts against him. Walker has very good numbers against Clemens, but Walker doesn't start against him.

Why was no one looking at the plate? Wilson did not step on it until after they made the play at 1st. Barrett went out to field the ball so he had his back turned, but Howry should have seen that.

You would think he has trade value. He is hitting .301 with 12 HR's and will make about $2M the rest of the season and then he is a free agent.

Doug Melvin laughed off rumors of Abreu to Milwaukee earlier in the week. He said he has not even had a conversation with Pat Gillick. The Brewers can't afford Lee, I don't see how they can pay Abreu.

Good thing Walker doesn't play more.

Is Maddux done as a Cub at Wrigley Field after this out?

Yea, and David Berkowitz was a great mailman, even if he was the Son of Sam . . . Face it, Sammy's a tool - plain and simple Right. Because leaving the last game of the season early is the same as being a serial killer. The Anti-Sosa vandetta that has happened in and around this organization since 2004 is absurd. Great insight Springfield_CUBBY! Your logic and reasons for ripping one of the greatest Cubs ever is so eloquently presented.

Bad throw by Theroit. He shouldn't be allowed to play for at least 3 days. Thats the rule, right? Now Cedeno too... Can Neifi play 2B and SS at the same time?

Over/Under: 125 pitches by Neifi out of the pen tonight. Neifi's a starter, dude. He was throwing a side session to prepare for a weekend start. Little known fact: Neifi can pitch with either arm. This will allow Dusty to blow out his right arm and his left arm. Hopefully.