TruffleShuffle

That seems like a bit of revisionist history to me. If I recall correctly, the departure of Maddux back in '92 wasn't motivated by money so much as a desire to win and the fact that Cubs management kind of jerked him around in negotiations. (Also, didn't a New York team offer a bigger contract than the one he eventually accepted with Atlanta?) As for his recent exile from the Braves, that was almost entirely the decision of Braves management. Maddux wanted to stay in Atlanta, but they simply couldn't afford to retain him. They made the desicion to not offer arbitration, not Greg. The fact of the matter is that Maddux has not pitched poorly for the Cubs. He's certainly not at the HOF-levels he maintained throughout the '90s and the Cubs are probably overpaying for the production they're getting out of him but not ridiculously so. Trying to find a way to weasel out of a contract negotiated in good faith is a spineless, detestable dodge of responsibility. Also don't forget it's exactly that type of thing that led to the White Sox throwing the 1919 series. Comiskey was a notorious cheapskate who avoided paying performance bonuses any way he could, driving many players to look for more creative ways of generating income. I believe the Cubs offered Maddux $2M less than the Braves did over 5 years. As for throwing the 1919 Series, you're talking about apples and oranges. Before the last 30 years, a lot of non-stars had to work in the offseason to supplement their baseball income. Greg Maddux after this year will have made over $120 million playing baseball. I really don't think he's going to start fixing games to stay out of bankruptcy. Like I said, I'd have to think hard about doing this if the Cubs are still contending in late August. But if they're not, letting Maddux's option vest is doing nothing for this year except possibly winning a meaningless extra game or two this year, while at the same time sabotaging the team's chances of winning next year due to poor allocation of financial resources.

I'm not saying we should be one of those teams signing the Jon Liebers and Eric Miltons of the world to $7-8M per year contracts. But guys like Woody Williams and Jeff Suppan are good signings for the production they give you. There are always average pitchers available for $3-4M per year, and there are always going to be overrated pitchers like Milton or Lieber who will get a lot more than they should.

There are two ends to a business negotiation. Maddux is providing a service, albeit an expensive one, and the Cubs agreed to pay him to provide the service. If the Cubs don't want to pay the money then they should cut or trade him. To sit him on the bench or pull him is un-fair labor practice. A practice I might add that led to the fixing of games a long time ago. I'd argue that the Cubs made their offer to Maddux with the expectation that he'd pitch with an ERA under 4.00 the last couple of years. He hasn't provided that service, so why shouldn't they keep him on the bench and prevent him from receiving the salary of a #2 starter next year? Because no free agent will sign with the Cubs again? He's not pitching that bad this year, there aren't pitchers who can replace him and do better. The Cubs shouldn't have offered the option but they did. On the other hand, there are pitchers who would pitch just as well and cost much less simply because they wouldn't have an irrelevent Hall of Fame legacy behind them. I guarantee you if the Cubs were to throw an extra million per year at a good bullpen arm, he wouldn't be so concerned about the Cubs' "classless" treatment of Maddux. Like I said, Maddux has treated the game like a business and so have most major league ballplayers. I don't understand the indignation with the Cubs if they were to do the same.

There are two ends to a business negotiation. Maddux is providing a service, albeit an expensive one, and the Cubs agreed to pay him to provide the service. If the Cubs don't want to pay the money then they should cut or trade him. To sit him on the bench or pull him is un-fair labor practice. A practice I might add that led to the fixing of games a long time ago. I'd argue that the Cubs made their offer to Maddux with the expectation that he'd pitch with an ERA under 4.00 the last couple of years. He hasn't provided that service, so why shouldn't they keep him on the bench and prevent him from receiving the salary of a #2 starter next year?

So can we call Maddux classless for leaving the Cubs to take more money with the Braves, and then leaving the Braves to take more money with the Cubs once again? After all, a lot of people are willing to call the Cubs classless if they find a way to avoid paying Maddux $9M per year. Clearly Maddux has treated the game like a business, hasn't he?

It makes sense because the Cubs will save money - they're not paying a future HOF that won't pitch to that level any more. You are right that Maddux has not pitched poorly; however, he also has not pitched well. He certainly does not deserve the $9M that he will get next year if the Cubs allow him to throw 190 innings. If he were a #2 pitcher at this point in his career, I wouldn't be arguing against him so vehemently. To me, it doesn't make any sense to pay a #4 starter the money that a #2 starter deserves. I'm rather disappointed in the dialogue that this thread has sparked, considering that it's a very important issue heading into next year.

OK, here's another example. John Abraham, who played for the (NFL) Jets in 2004, sat out the team's playoff games, having injured his knee several weeks earlier. The team thought he could play, and he in fact said that a major factor in not playing was his impending free agency and the knowledge that reinjuring the knee would cost him millions of dollars. So basically, the guy did what was best for him at the expense of his team. Of course, the Jets cut the guy loose and nobody in the NFL wanted anything to do with such a selfish player, right? Wrong... they placed the franchise tag on him for 2005, meaning he'll make at least $6.7M this coming season. The Jets franchised him because despite his sitting out the playoffs last year, he's a great player. Most professional athletes treat sports like a business and don't get criticized for it at all. Why would it be wrong for the Cubs to make a smart business decision and not let Maddux's option vest?

Skip his starts or start pulling him after 5 innings. Maybe it would be panned by the media and considered classless, but it's better than wasting $5M of our limited resources for next season. And what happens if no one takes the 5 million because they saw how the Cubs ripped off Maddux? Yeah, like that's really going to happen. 95% of baseball players are motivated by money first and everything else is way down the list. Let's put it this way... say a veteran major leaguer has a $10M option next year, and his team is in the playoff race. His option vests if he throws 3 more innings. His shoulder is about to fall off and he knows he's going to need surgery in the off-season, but he hasn't told the club. Does he go out and pitch three innings in his next scheduled start, thereby causing his option to vest? Or does he do the best thing for the team, sitting himself down since he would only be hurting the team by pitching injured, with the knowledge that if he does get a contract the next season it will be for much, much less than $10M? I guarantee you 95% of ballplayers would make that next start, because it's a business to them as well. Anyway, if the Cubs are 5+ games out of the playoff race come mid-August I just don't think it makes sense to go ahead and hurt their chances to win next year for no reason. I see where you're all coming from, but when Maddux is putting up an ERA in the mid-4s next year and the bullpen or offense are still mediocre, don't say there wasn't another way.

Skip his starts or start pulling him after 5 innings. Maybe it would be panned by the media and considered classless, but it's better than wasting $5M of our limited resources for next season.

The guy is old now. His ERA+ the last two seasons has been 105 and 113, and if the first quarter is any indication it's not going to be any better this year. The 105 ERA+ his last year with the Braves made it a pretty lousy signing for the amount of money he got, considering that we lost a younger, better pitcher (Clement) who we could have kept for the money they're paying Maddux. So bottom line, if this team is going nowhere in August and September - and even if they're contending I'd have to consider it - don't let him reach 190 innings on the year (or whatever the number is). Average pitchers generally get paid in the $3-4M range, like Woody Williams (this year) or Jeff Suppan. Why spend more than twice what we need to spend to have a guy pitch like a #4 starter? I know it might seem like the wrong thing to do to sit a future Hall-of-Famer or start giving him the early hook, but baseball is a business. The Cubs can use the extra $5M a year to upgrade the bullpen or bring in a better hitter. Don't waste money on a guy just because he was once a great pitcher.

Man, the NL has a monopoly on the first basemen. NL Pujols, Helton, Thome, Lee, Delgado AL Ortiz(not really a first baseman), Sexon (Rob Deer 2.0), Teixeira, Morneau (He and Tex are going to jump Lee, Thome and Delgado soon enough. Tex may be better than Delgado now), Hafner? (DH), Sweeny? You left Overbay off the list... he looks real solid with a lot of those doubles turning into HRs now.

Settle down, Beavis.

I don't think that's a fair comparison. At least in trading Justin Jones, they got back an All-Star caliber shortstop for the stretch run. They left Sisco unprotected and got $50,000.

He didn't have a choice. There was no other OF available to replace Hollandsworth in the OF, unless you want to put Ronny Cedeno at third and Macias in LF. Unfortunately the Cubs are playing with a short bench right now, and while you'll usually score with 1st and 2nd, none out, you can't just go for broke and have a terrible defensive setup if you don't score there.

How did he manage to blame the one effective offensive player for the loss?!?!

Not really. Hawkins closing the game, Macias the first pinch hitter off the bench, not using Dubois in place of one of his precious vets (Perez in the 9th inning)... it's just rehashing the same beefs. He sucks, I don't think there's much more he can do to show that.

Another note on how awesome Eric Patterson is. On days that he plays, the CHICAGO CUBS are 7-6. When he doesn't play, the Cubs are 5-9. He's that good... he makes the Cubs better by playing for Peoria. So come back soon Eric... not just for the good of the Chiefs, but for the good of the Cubs as well.

Why are people so eager to delete this thread?

And the funny thing is, anyone they put in there will do better than anyone we put in as our closer. They put in some guy named Flores the other day and he closed it out.

BP is really obnoxious. They act like they know everything and like what they say is gospel. In that article they basically say that Livan Hernandez will either get hurt or be ineffective the rest of his career because of the abuse he's taken from his managers. So where's the mea culpa from them, now that Hernandez has posted his best ERA+'s in back to back seasons? Of course, it's nowhere, because they'll never admit that they were wrong. This is going to come off poorly, probably, but just like BP, you are acting as if you know everything about pitching injuries right now. I don't particularly have a problem with it, given that I act more or less the same way most of the time, too. But, you don't know everything (neither do I). Like it or not, pitchers get injured, and many of those injuries are directly related to overuse. Sometimes it comes from High School coaches or college coaches, or even the minors. But the act of pitching itself is unnatural and it hurts the arm. We also know that more strain is placed on the arm when pitching mechanics get out of whack. And the more tired a pitcher gets, the more likely his mechanics will falter. Therefore, when a pitcher gets tired, he becomes more susceptible to injury. You may not like BP, and you may disagree with them, but that doesn't mean that PAP and pitching counts are something to pay attention to. Ignoring the effects would be foolish and short-sighted. And there will be exceptions. Some guys will never get injured no matter how many pitches are thrown. Others will get injured early and often. Coming off elbow surgery as he was, it's a miracle that Alou didn't destroy Schmidt's arm. I'm not an idiot, Truffle. So please don't act like I don't know what I'm talking about -- I don't need your so-called tip to discuss or acknowledge that Maddux and Clemens are incredible pitchers who have been extremely durable. I grant that Maddux and Clemens have defied the "injury" odds, but look at all the guys who do have had TJS or rotator cuff injuries. Guys like Eric Gagne, AJ Burnett, Kerry Wood, John Leiber, Mariano Rivera, and Bill Wagner all had it. For every Roger Clemens or Greg Maddux, I can point out a John Smoltz or a David Wells who really hurt their arm. Look at all the guys in the minors who blow out their arms each and every year. Certainly, there will be guys -- like Livan Hernandez (who I mentioned) -- who are just durable as heck and can pitch seemingly forever. But other guys, like AJ Burnett, quickly blow out their elbow when overused. I've never much cared for PECOTA or BP's injury predictions myself, but at least they are looking to learn and protect pitchers -- in their own roundabout fashion. For someone who predicts the weather based on variable conditions and factors, Truffle, you seem resistant to making predictions or conclusions about pitching injuries based on other variable factors including -- but not limited to -- PAP. The condescesion was intended toward BP, not you. I'm fully aware that pitch counts should be watched; however, I've always been a believer that mechanics are much more important than pitch counts. Using proper drive with the legs, not throwing across the body, etc. A guy like Prior, I believe, has had injuries simply because he has something in his elbow that was bound to flare up. His mechanics are great and still he struggles with inflammation in his elbow. I think the most important thing organizations can do is teach pitchers proper mechanics in the minors. Don't just let a guy go out throwing way across his body because it's working. He's going to blow out his arm sooner or later. Also, stop babying guys in the minors. They're on such strict pitch counts that when they get to the majors and are throwing well, and the big club is under such pressure to win, they end up being overextended. I'd like to see guy in the minors getting used to pitching more than they are now. I think the human body can be trained to handle higher amounts of exertion as long as you build up to it properly.

Does anyone know what Dubois' stats were against RHP in the minors?

Yup, because if you don't protect him, that means nobody will take him, right Jim? *sigh* we sure could use him in the pen right now. Well we could use a guy pitching that well, but to be fair (and I've trashed Hendry for leaving Sisco unprotected) there is no way Sisco would be in our bullpen if he had been protected. He'd be in the starting rotation at West Tennessee.

BP is really obnoxious. They act like they know everything and like what they say is gospel. In that article they basically say that Livan Hernandez will either get hurt or be ineffective the rest of his career because of the abuse he's taken from his managers. So where's the mea culpa from them, now that Hernandez has posted his best ERA+'s in back to back seasons? Of course, it's nowhere, because they'll never admit that they were wrong. Russ Ortiz is another guy Dusty has supposedly abused, yet his ERA+ the last two years is right in line with his career average. Jason Schmidt was destroyed so badly by all the abused that he's thrown only 206 innings per year the last three seasons, and finished in the top 4 of Cy Young voting each of the last two years. But they never mention any of that. See, from where they're sitting, it's easy to bring up the guys who got ineffective or injured, and blame it on the manager for abuse. But what about guys who were not abused and still got hurt? Or the guys who were abused and still turned into outstanding pitcher? They don't prove their point, so they sweep those guys under the rug. Here's a tip. Check out the numbers early in the careers of Greg Maddux and Roger Clemens. Maddux was throwing 230-265 innings a year between age 22 and age 25, and Clemens was 250-280 innings a year between age 23 and age 25. According to BP, these two guys should have been injured, ineffective and out of the league... but hey look what happened, they both pitched 20 years in the majors and turned into two of the best pitchers of their generation!

So does Jason Schmidt. Wait, just to make sure, we're talking about pitchers Dusty has "ruined" right? I assume you're referring to the same Jason Schmidt who had elbow problems the year before he got traded to San Francisco? And the same Jason Schmidt who had these average pitch counts? 1998: 105.5 1999: 108.6 2000: 109.5 2001: (Pit) 98.1 2001: (SF) 103.1 2002: 104.4 2003: 106.8 2004: 112.8 Note that the two years Dusty was his manager, he had his lowest pitch counts in a 7 year stretch. Yet Dusty is the one who caused his injuries? As for Nen: 1995: 62 G, 65.2 IP (Fla) 1996: 75 G, 83.0 IP (Fla) 1997: 73 G, 74.0 IP (Fla) 1998: 78 G, 88.2 IP (SF) 1999: 72 G, 72.1 IP 2000: 68 G, 66.0 IP 2001: 79 G, 77.2 IP 2002: 68 G, 73.2 IP AVG: 72 G, 75 IP Avg (Fla): 70 G, 74 IP Avg (SF): 73 G, 76 IP M. Rivera: 1996: 61 G, 107.2 IP 1997: 66 G, 72 IP 1998: 54 G, 61 IP 1999: 66 G, 69 IP 2000: 66 G, 76 IP 2001: 71 G, 81 IP 2002: 45 G, 46 IP (inj) 2003: 64 G, 71 IP 2004: 74 G, 79 IP AVG (w/o 2002): 65 G, 77 IP T. Hoffman: 1996: 70 G, 88 IP 1997: 70 G, 81 IP 1998: 66 G, 73 IP 1999: 64 G, 67 IP 2000: 70 G, 72 IP 2001: 62 G, 60 IP 2002: 61 G, 59 IP AVG: 66 G, 72 IP T. Percival: 1996: 70 G, 88 IP 1997: 70 G, 81 IP 1998: 66 G, 73 IP 1999: 64 G, 67 IP 2000: 70 G, 72 IP 2001: 62 G, 60 IP 2002: 61 G, 59 IP 2003: 52 G, 49 IP (some inj) 2004: 52 G, 49 IP (some inj) AVG (w/o inj years): 66 IP, 71 IP What do these guys have in common? For one thing, their numbers are very similar. Nen pitched a few more games than the other guys on average, but had fewer games where he had to pitch more than 1 inning. Also, each of these guys has had injury problems, and each of these guys has been considered an elite closer. So either closers are just abused by every manager, or Nen was abused and the others just had bad luck. If you ask people around baseball, most would say that his delivery - little leg kick and very little drive with his lower half - was the source of his shoulder problems. Guys who generate most of their power based on purely their arm strength are prone to break down more than guys who drive with their legs, and Nen is about the most extreme example of a guy who used his arm strength and not his legs.

I don't know, but I've heard Dusty bashed for abusing various starters, setup men and closers during his career, which is really hard to do. The only thing I can conclude from this is that Dusty's teams simply play more innings than every other team in baseball.