How about some props for Maddux

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I just can't help myself. I don't want to post in here, but I cannot resist.

 

Since Maddux came back to the Cubs his team has won 29 of the 49 games he has pitched. That is a win % of .591 (20 and 13 last year, 9 and 7 this year). That tells me he is a quality pitcher. We can argue about the money, but I am hard pressed to believe that some "in house" farm hand could post those numbers.

 

In that same time, he's posted a 4.19 ERA, I think one of our farm hands could do that.

 

What gives you that idea?

 

Past performance by those farm hands, plus the sheer quantity of them. Even if they were slightly worse, the savings would still make it worthwhile.

 

Past preformance indicates that they preform at a lower level.

 

I suppose I'm not willing to accept a reduction in preformance to save a few million dollars in a professional sport that doesn't have a salary cap.

 

So what do Minor League numbers mean? They are very accurate indicators of Major League performance when put in proper context.

 

There's no salary cap, but that doesn't mean the team doesn't operate on a budget. The Trib puts limits on how much Hendry can spend, so he should be as efficient as he can with the money he is alotted.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

If you're going to look at it that way, lets take this same situation, and apply it to a different position. LF. We had Moises Alou last year. A lot of people were saying we'd have to overpay to keep him for this year. And there were cheaper, younger farm hands available (Jason Dubois, one of our top prospects who scorched the minors last year.) And now look what we're doing, we're looking for a new left fielder instead of paying a little bit more for a proven guy like Alou. Dubois might be a great player some day, but he's not exactly Moises Alou right now.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

If you're going to look at it that way, lets take this same situation, and apply it to a different position. LF. We had Moises Alou last year. A lot of people were saying we'd have to overpay to keep him for this year. And there were cheaper, younger farm hands available (Jason Dubois, one of our top prospects who scorched the minors last year.) And now look what we're doing, we're looking for a new left fielder instead of paying a little bit more for a proven guy like Alou. Dubois might be a great player some day, but he's not exactly Moises Alou right now.

 

Several differences. Dubois hasn't been given a chance to just have the job, otherwise we might be singing a different tune about LF. Also, with the SP situation, you aren't pinning your hopes on just one player. Mitre, Williams, Hill, Pinto, Nolasco, Wellemeyer are all guys who are competing for the spot.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

He's had enough AB's this year for the Cubs to realize that no matter how much he plays, he wasn't going to put up Alou numbers this year. Otherwise they would just play him instead of looking for a new left fielder. And if you want to pay for 8 other pitchers when you can just pay one, that's your thing. Cause not one of those guys has proven they can pitch at Maddux's level, that's why they are competing for a 5th spot and bouncing up and down from the minors

[Transmogrified Tiger]

He's had enough AB's this year for the Cubs to realize that no matter how much he plays, he wasn't going to put up Alou numbers this year. Otherwise they would just play him instead of looking for a new left fielder. And if you want to pay for 8 other pitchers when you can just pay one, that's your thing. Cause not one of those guys has proven they can pitch at Maddux's level, that's why they are competing for a 5th spot and bouncing up and down from the minors

 

It would take almost 30 of those pitchers to equal just Maddux's salary. They are bouncing up and down from the minors because there is no place to put him with our outstanding pitching. Several of these guys(Mitre and Williams for sure) would be starting from the get go on a lot of teams. Williams has a career major league ERA lower than what Maddux has done as a Cub, and the rest of the farm hands are capable enough that the best of them could be a quality starter. Again, even if they are a slight downgrade, the money saved to spend on other places makes it worth it.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Well we don't have the Jerome Williams who's career ERA is 3.70. We have the Jerome Williams who had a 4.25 ERA last season, and a 4.91 ERA this season. You can't go buy his earlier years, because I'll bring up Maddux's earlier years, and I can guarantee who's are better. It's what he can do now that is important. I wouldn't say he would be a starter on every other team because he proved to the Giants that he wasn't worthy of that spot. Mitre has a 5.19 ERA, and a career ERA of 6.16. Even with Maddux's unusually high ERA this year, he's still finding ways to win, while those guys haven't.

[Chocolate Milk]

I just can't help myself. I don't want to post in here, but I cannot resist.

 

Since Maddux came back to the Cubs his team has won 29 of the 49 games he has pitched. That is a win % of .591 (20 and 13 last year, 9 and 7 this year). That tells me he is a quality pitcher. We can argue about the money, but I am hard pressed to believe that some "in house" farm hand could post those numbers.

 

In that same time, he's posted a 4.19 ERA, I think one of our farm hands could do that.

 

What gives you that idea?

 

Past performance by those farm hands, plus the sheer quantity of them. Even if they were slightly worse, the savings would still make it worthwhile.

 

Past preformance indicates that they preform at a lower level.

 

I suppose I'm not willing to accept a reduction in preformance to save a few million dollars in a professional sport that doesn't have a salary cap.

 

So what do Minor League numbers mean? They are very accurate indicators of Major League performance when put in proper context.

 

There's no salary cap, but that doesn't mean the team doesn't operate on a budget. The Trib puts limits on how much Hendry can spend, so he should be as efficient as he can with the money he is alotted.

 

Who's talking about Minor League numbers? I'm talking about Major League starts. I'm not quite sure why you think it is so easy to find a 4ERA pitcher who can come in and win 15 games. How many rookies historically have actually been able to do that? I'd venture the number to be quite low. No one in our farm system has shown they are ready to make that colossal leap.

 

I understand the workings of the Cubs Budget. However, the fact remains that Maddux few million of overpayment is not going to hinder us from getting any players that we really want. If you want to see a more gross misuse of funds, look no further than Right Field in Baltimore.

 

I suppose you'll never see it from my point of view. For all intents and purposes, I am done with this discussion.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Well we don't have the Jerome Williams who's career ERA is 3.70. We have the Jerome Williams who had a 4.25 ERA last season, and a 4.91 ERA this season. You can't go buy his earlier years, because I'll bring up Maddux's earlier years, and I can guarantee who's are better. It's what he can do now that is important. I wouldn't say he would be a starter on every other team because he proved to the Giants that he wasn't worthy of that spot. Mitre has a 5.19 ERA, and a career ERA of 6.16. Even with Maddux's unusually high ERA this year, he's still finding ways to win, while those guys haven't.

 

Numbers from 2 years ago are much more relevant in predicting future performance for the 23(!) year old Williams, than the 39 year old Maddux. Mitre's haphazard starts are not indicative of his true ability, and he's still only 24. That doesn't even include Hill, Nolasco, Pinto, who would have to beat them out. Nor does it include Rusch, who could be back at a much cheaper price than Maddux, at a younger age, and has outproduced Maddux as a starter with the Cubs.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Actually, numbers from 2 years ago are perfect indicators of what Maddux will do in the future... he's done it 15 years in a row, and there is no reason to believe he's going to stop. And you say Rusch had outproduced Maddux since he's been here? His ERA might be lower, but he has definitely not outproduced him. A few good spot starts last year and this year don't compare to day in and day out consistent good play. Otherwise, Maddux would be the one making spot starts while Rusch had a permanent spot in teh rotation.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Sorry, I meant 17 years in a row.

[goonys evil twin]

Actually, numbers from 2 years ago are perfect indicators of what Maddux will do in the future... he's done it 15 years in a row, and there is no reason to believe he's going to stop.

 

Well, except for the laws of nature.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Actually, numbers from 2 years ago are perfect indicators of what Maddux will do in the future... he's done it 15 years in a row, and there is no reason to believe he's going to stop. And you say Rusch had outproduced Maddux since he's been here? His ERA might be lower, but he has definitely not outproduced him. A few good spot starts last year and this year don't compare to day in and day out consistent good play. Otherwise, Maddux would be the one making spot starts while Rusch had a permanent spot in teh rotation.

 

Actually there's plenty of reason Maddux will decline. His ERA is up for the 4th consecutive year, His BAA and OPS against have been going up since 2000. On the other hand, pitchers like Williams, Mitre, etc. are very likely to improve as they approach their prime. Add in the fact that there is a 9 million dollar disparity between them, and I'd say that the team is better off with the young guys.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Actually, numbers from 2 years ago are perfect indicators of what Maddux will do in the future... he's done it 15 years in a row, and there is no reason to believe he's going to stop.

 

Well, except for the laws of nature.

 

Tell that to Roger Clemens and Randy Johnson. Oh, and up to this year, Barry Bonds. Old age is no longer that big of an excuse for some of these guys. They are capable of performing well past the age of 35.

 

Add in the fact that there is a 9 million dollar disparity between them, and I'd say that the team is better off with the young guys.

 

You honestly believe that even with the fact that Maddux's ERA, though rising the past few years, is still better than those two guys? And the fact that's he's well on his way to another 15+ win season while those two can't put back to back good starts together? You'd honestly feel more comfortable in our chances of winning with them on the mound than Greg Maddux? I don't even know why I'm still in this discussion. It's bordering on insanity.

[goonys evil twin]

Actually, numbers from 2 years ago are perfect indicators of what Maddux will do in the future... he's done it 15 years in a row, and there is no reason to believe he's going to stop.

 

Well, except for the laws of nature.

 

Tell that to Roger Clemens and Randy Johnson. Oh, and up to this year, Barry Bonds. Old age is no longer that big of an excuse for some of these guys. They are capable of performing well past the age of 35.

 

Awesome, time has stopped, there is no more aging. Maddux hasn't been in decline. He'll go on forever.

 

 

This is great news.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

A slowly declining Maddux is a better option than a slowly improving Mitre or Williams (who actually isn't improving, he's declining) right now. And that's all I'm concerned about. The longest we will have Maddux will be through next year. I'd be perfectly content with paying him 9 mil for 3 straight 15+ win seasons.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Actually, numbers from 2 years ago are perfect indicators of what Maddux will do in the future... he's done it 15 years in a row, and there is no reason to believe he's going to stop.

 

Well, except for the laws of nature.

 

Tell that to Roger Clemens and Randy Johnson. Oh, and up to this year, Barry Bonds. Old age is no longer that big of an excuse for some of these guys. They are capable of performing well past the age of 35.

 

Awesome, time has stopped, there is no more aging. Maddux hasn't been in decline. He'll go on forever.

 

 

This is great news.

 

That's not what I meant. He only has probably a year and a half left before he retires. Does anyone honestly think he'll decline to the point where he'll be worse than our farm guys in a year and a half? He'll still be a better option

[Chocolate Milk]

Actually, numbers from 2 years ago are perfect indicators of what Maddux will do in the future... he's done it 15 years in a row, and there is no reason to believe he's going to stop.

 

Well, except for the laws of nature.

 

Tell that to Roger Clemens and Randy Johnson. Oh, and up to this year, Barry Bonds. Old age is no longer that big of an excuse for some of these guys. They are capable of performing well past the age of 35.

 

Awesome, time has stopped, there is no more aging. Maddux hasn't been in decline. He'll go on forever.

 

 

This is great news.

 

Great, a snide remark. This really adds to the discussion nicely.

[imb]

Will he be 8.7 million dollars better? Nope.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Add in the fact that there is a 9 million dollar disparity between them, and I'd say that the team is better off with the young guys.

 

You honestly believe that even with the fact that Maddux's ERA, though rising the past few years, is still better than those two guys? And the fact that's he's well on his way to another 15+ win season while those two can't put back to back good starts together? You'd honestly feel more comfortable in our chances of winning with them on the mound than Greg Maddux? I don't even know why I'm still in this discussion. It's bordering on insanity.

 

Yes, I do feel more comfortable with those 2, because they aren't going to be much worse(if not better) than Maddux, while we have 9 million more to improve elsewhere. That's the difference between a J.D. Drew, and a Danny Bautista, to pull 2 names out of thin air.

[goonys evil twin]

A slowly declining Maddux is a better option than a slowly improving Mitre or Williams (who actually isn't improving, he's declining) right now. And that's all I'm concerned about. The longest we will have Maddux will be through next year. I'd be perfectly content with paying him 9 mil for 3 straight 15+ win seasons.

 

I agree that he's better, but he's not $9 million better, and $9 million would go a long way to solving the corner OF problem.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

You wouldn't pay that much for 3 seasons of 15+ wins? Wow, considering we're paying Wood MORE for ZERO seasons of 15+ wins.

 

He was old last year when he led the team in wins. He's old this year while he's leading the team in wins. He was old in Atlanta when he was leading the team in wins. I don't see the logic in wanting to play younger guys who won't win as much. It might just be me, but I thought the point of baseball was to WIN GAMES.

[imb]

You wouldn't pay that much for 3 seasons of 15+ wins? Wow, considering we're paying Wood MORE for ZERO seasons of 15+ wins.

 

He was old last year when he led the team in wins. He's old this year while he's leading the team in wins. He was old in Atlanta when he was leading the team in wins. I don't see the logic in wanting to play younger guys who won't win as much. It might just be me, but I thought the point of baseball was to WIN GAMES.

 

The point of pitching is to keep people from scoring, something that the group of Hill/Williams/Mitre can do much more economically.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Add in the fact that there is a 9 million dollar disparity between them, and I'd say that the team is better off with the young guys.

 

You honestly believe that even with the fact that Maddux's ERA, though rising the past few years, is still better than those two guys? And the fact that's he's well on his way to another 15+ win season while those two can't put back to back good starts together? You'd honestly feel more comfortable in our chances of winning with them on the mound than Greg Maddux? I don't even know why I'm still in this discussion. It's bordering on insanity.

 

Yes, I do feel more comfortable with those 2, because they aren't going to be much worse(if not better) than Maddux, while we have 9 million more to improve elsewhere. That's the difference between a J.D. Drew, and a Danny Bautista, to pull 2 names out of thin air.

 

JD Drew is being paid MORE than Maddux to underproduce. Are you sure you don't want to rethink that?

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

You wouldn't pay that much for 3 seasons of 15+ wins? Wow, considering we're paying Wood MORE for ZERO seasons of 15+ wins.

 

He was old last year when he led the team in wins. He's old this year while he's leading the team in wins. He was old in Atlanta when he was leading the team in wins. I don't see the logic in wanting to play younger guys who won't win as much. It might just be me, but I thought the point of baseball was to WIN GAMES.

 

The point of pitching is to keep people from scoring, something that the group of Hill/Williams/Mitre can do much more economically.

 

Well, when those guys start doing that, let me know. For now, we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[imb]

Add in the fact that there is a 9 million dollar disparity between them, and I'd say that the team is better off with the young guys.

 

You honestly believe that even with the fact that Maddux's ERA, though rising the past few years, is still better than those two guys? And the fact that's he's well on his way to another 15+ win season while those two can't put back to back good starts together? You'd honestly feel more comfortable in our chances of winning with them on the mound than Greg Maddux? I don't even know why I'm still in this discussion. It's bordering on insanity.

 

Yes, I do feel more comfortable with those 2, because they aren't going to be much worse(if not better) than Maddux, while we have 9 million more to improve elsewhere. That's the difference between a J.D. Drew, and a Danny Bautista, to pull 2 names out of thin air.

 

JD Drew is being paid MORE than Maddux to underproduce. Are you sure you don't want to rethink that?

 

The point is, do you want Maddux and Denny Bautista, or Mitre/Hill/Williams and Drew?