How about some props for Maddux

[Chocolate Milk]

This Hubaloo about Greg's option is Much Ado about Nothing, IMO.

 

He's a known quanity. 90% of the time you'll get 6 innings with 2-4 runs given up. Sometimes a little better sometimes a little worse. He doesn't get hurt and he doesn't miss starts. He puts the team in a decent position to win a game.

 

I'm not sure that's true, but even if it is, it's true for a LOT of pitchers.

 

Some of that is a generalization while most of it is true. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who wins as consistantly and is as durable as Greg Maddux.

 

Regardless, this doesn't really matter because the amount we might be overpaying is insignifigant. I would put this issue among issues such as uniform color, Wrigley Field grass length, and opposing Managers' parking availability in terms of important issues that need discussion.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

I really don't understand how people can be so anti-Maddux, talk about what a terrible contract it is and always let Kerry off the hook.

 

And I'm not complaining about either, just saying.

 

Maybe because they're thinking about performance going forward, not what they have produced? Dunno.

 

I'm pretty sure when they signed Maddux, they were looking forward expecting 15 wins a year. Same thing with Wood. So far, only one of those guys has delivered.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

This Hubaloo about Greg's option is Much Ado about Nothing, IMO.

 

He's a known quanity. 90% of the time you'll get 6 innings with 2-4 runs given up. Sometimes a little better sometimes a little worse. He doesn't get hurt and he doesn't miss starts. He puts the team in a decent position to win a game.

 

I'm not sure that's true, but even if it is, it's true for a LOT of pitchers.

 

Some of that is a generalization while most of it is true. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who wins as consistantly and is as durable as Greg Maddux.

 

Regardless, this doesn't really matter because the amount we might be overpaying is insignifigant. I would put this issue among issues such as uniform color, Wrigley Field grass length, and opposing Managers' parking availability in terms of important issues that need discussion.

 

It's not nearly that trivial. If the choice between having comparable production from Maddux for 9 million or a farmhand at the minimum is out there, you have to try and get rid of Maddux. That's nearly 10% of the payroll, not insignificant by any stretch of the imagination.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I really don't understand how people can be so anti-Maddux, talk about what a terrible contract it is and always let Kerry off the hook.

 

And I'm not complaining about either, just saying.

 

Maybe because they're thinking about performance going forward, not what they have produced? Dunno.

 

I'm pretty sure when they signed Maddux, they were looking forward expecting 15 wins a year. Same thing with Wood. So far, only one of those guys has delivered.

 

I'm not sure how well I can express how little it matters to me how many games each player wins. If they perform, they perform, there are too many factors that go into wins for me to use that to evaluate pitcher performance.

[JC]

 

Regardless, this doesn't really matter because the amount we might be overpaying is insignifigant. I would put this issue among issues such as uniform color, Wrigley Field grass length, and opposing Managers' parking availability in terms of important issues that need discussion.

 

It's not nearly that trivial. If the choice between having comparable production from Maddux for 9 million or a farmhand at the minimum is out there, you have to try and get rid of Maddux. That's nearly 10% of the payroll, not insignificant by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Agreed.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

This Hubaloo about Greg's option is Much Ado about Nothing, IMO.

 

He's a known quanity. 90% of the time you'll get 6 innings with 2-4 runs given up. Sometimes a little better sometimes a little worse. He doesn't get hurt and he doesn't miss starts. He puts the team in a decent position to win a game.

 

I'm not sure that's true, but even if it is, it's true for a LOT of pitchers.

 

Some of that is a generalization while most of it is true. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who wins as consistantly and is as durable as Greg Maddux.

 

Regardless, this doesn't really matter because the amount we might be overpaying is insignifigant. I would put this issue among issues such as uniform color, Wrigley Field grass length, and opposing Managers' parking availability in terms of important issues that need discussion.

 

It's not nearly that trivial. If the choice between having comparable production from Maddux for 9 million or a farmhand at the minimum is out there, you have to try and get rid of Maddux. That's nearly 10% of the payroll, not insignificant by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I see what you're saying there. But why isn't anyone talking about trying to get rid of Wood for a cheaper option? I know Maddux is near the end, but he's still productive, probably more productive than any farm guy you can bring up right now.

 

EDIT: For the record, I'm not saying we should get rid of either of these guys. They're both tremendous pitchers, and I don't think we overpaid for either. I'm just stating that if one is expendable, why not the other.

Edited June 27, 2005 by BleedCubbieBlue81

[Mark_R]

I really don't understand how people can be so anti-Maddux, talk about what a terrible contract it is and always let Kerry off the hook.

 

And I'm not complaining about either, just saying.

 

Maybe because they're thinking about performance going forward, not what they have produced? Dunno.

 

A(nother) DL Stint from Wood and constant mediocrity from Maddux? That's what I'm anticipating.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

This Hubaloo about Greg's option is Much Ado about Nothing, IMO.

 

He's a known quanity. 90% of the time you'll get 6 innings with 2-4 runs given up. Sometimes a little better sometimes a little worse. He doesn't get hurt and he doesn't miss starts. He puts the team in a decent position to win a game.

 

I'm not sure that's true, but even if it is, it's true for a LOT of pitchers.

 

Some of that is a generalization while most of it is true. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who wins as consistantly and is as durable as Greg Maddux.

 

Regardless, this doesn't really matter because the amount we might be overpaying is insignifigant. I would put this issue among issues such as uniform color, Wrigley Field grass length, and opposing Managers' parking availability in terms of important issues that need discussion.

 

It's not nearly that trivial. If the choice between having comparable production from Maddux for 9 million or a farmhand at the minimum is out there, you have to try and get rid of Maddux. That's nearly 10% of the payroll, not insignificant by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I see what you're saying there. But why isn't anyone talking about trying to get rid of Wood for a cheaper option? I know Maddux is near the end, but he's still productive, probably more productive than any farm guy you can bring up right now.

 

Because Wood is worth his contract, his problem has been health. If he's healthy, he's worth it, if he's not, he's untradeable. Maddux is serviceable, but I really think Mitre and Williams are close to him in production, certainly worth the dropoff to free up 9 million to use in other places.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

I don't mean to knock Kerry Wood, but where in his career (outside of 2003, when he had his 14 wins and led the league in strikeouts) has he proven to be worth 9.5 million dollars? He has the potential to be worth that much, but he keeps getting injured. He's yet to prove he's a 9.5 million dollar pitcher. Every time he starts to get the ball rolling, something happens to him.

[Laura]

I really don't understand how people can be so anti-Maddux, talk about what a terrible contract it is and always let Kerry off the hook.

 

And I'm not complaining about either, just saying.

 

Maybe because they're thinking about performance going forward, not what they have produced? Dunno.

 

2004 should be included in any overall comparison, then, since 2004 performance was future performance at the time both contracts were signed.

 

I'm also not hugely enthusiastic about leaping into this argument for the 133rd time, since I know it will be had 1,033 times again. For all of the talk of pitchers who should have been obtained to replace Maddux, I don't see a lot of hugely discounted ones who I see as providing the consistency he has and will. And for all of the talk of the inhouse options who could fill that slot, I find it interesting that the current competition for the 5th slot involves recent acquisitions Jerome Williams and Glendon Rusch (though it sounds like Williams is the choice).

 

Maybe the Cubs can be blamed for those decisions. My guess is that the Cubs think that Maddux was one reason the Cubs stayed competitive last year and why they aren't a lot further back this year than they could be.

[Mark_R]

Because Wood is worth his contract, his problem has been health. If he's healthy, he's worth it, if he's not, he's untradeable. Maddux is serviceable, but I really think Mitre and Williams are close to him in production, certainly worth the dropoff to free up 9 million to use in other places.

 

Why not wait until he actually does something to warrant that first comment before making it?

 

Since signing that deal, he's been bad when "healthy" too. And part of a contract is staying healthy to perform. And I totally agree with you about that last comment you made.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I don't mean to knock Kerry Wood, but where in his career (outside of 2003, when he had his 14 wins and led the league in strikeouts) has he proven to be worth 9.5 million dollars? He has the potential to be worth that much, but he keeps getting injured. He's yet to prove he's a 9.5 million dollar pitcher. Every time he starts to get the ball rolling, something happens to him.

 

Obviously the injuries are a factor, but that's the risk you took with him, and IIRC his problems popped up after his extension. Last year, although he was limited to 140 IP, he still posted a 1.2 WHIP with over a K an inning and nearly a 3/1 K/BB ratio. Wood is very good once healthy. IF his injuries are behind him, he will be well worth his contract.

[Chocolate Milk]

This Hubaloo about Greg's option is Much Ado about Nothing, IMO.

 

He's a known quanity. 90% of the time you'll get 6 innings with 2-4 runs given up. Sometimes a little better sometimes a little worse. He doesn't get hurt and he doesn't miss starts. He puts the team in a decent position to win a game.

 

I'm not sure that's true, but even if it is, it's true for a LOT of pitchers.

 

Some of that is a generalization while most of it is true. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who wins as consistantly and is as durable as Greg Maddux.

 

Regardless, this doesn't really matter because the amount we might be overpaying is insignifigant. I would put this issue among issues such as uniform color, Wrigley Field grass length, and opposing Managers' parking availability in terms of important issues that need discussion.

 

It's not nearly that trivial. If the choice between having comparable production from Maddux for 9 million or a farmhand at the minimum is out there, you have to try and get rid of Maddux. That's nearly 10% of the payroll, not insignificant by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I'd love to plug in a farm hand and have him win 15 games with a 4ish ERA for the league min. It's a shame that that senario is an almost impossible one to come by. No one in our farm system has shown the ability to win 15 games or keep their ERA under 5 at the major league level. However, if you know of a farm hand capable of this, please tell Jim Hendry immediately.

 

Greg may not be worth 9 million but at the least he is worth half of that (and would probably get more than 4 million on the open market). the 4-5ish million we might be overpaying is insignificant, in my mind, for the production Greg brings.

 

Doesn't look like we're going to agree on this one.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

I don't mean to knock Kerry Wood, but where in his career (outside of 2003, when he had his 14 wins and led the league in strikeouts) has he proven to be worth 9.5 million dollars? He has the potential to be worth that much, but he keeps getting injured. He's yet to prove he's a 9.5 million dollar pitcher. Every time he starts to get the ball rolling, something happens to him.

 

Obviously the injuries are a factor, but that's the risk you took with him, and IIRC his problems popped up after his extension. Last year, although he was limited to 140 IP, he still posted a 1.2 WHIP with over a K an inning and nearly a 3/1 K/BB ratio. Wood is very good once healthy. IF his injuries are behind him, he will be well worth his contract.

 

This I do believe will happen in time, but he has to put his injuries behind him first. Which has been hard to do lately. I can't wait for Wednesday.

 

On that note, I'm going to lunch.

[Chocolate Milk]

One more thing I wanted to mention is that Maddux has been good with the younger pitches. This may be negligable but a few of the younger guys have said that Maddux has helped them out a lot. It may not be worth much but it might be worth something.

 

With that, I'm off to lunch and for the most part done with this stalemate!

[badger1679666666]

Why all the Wood hating in this thread?

 

Mark my words, by the end of this year, he'll be back to 2003 form, and then it will all dissipate.

[Backtobanks]

Besides the health issue, the difference between Wood and Maddux always appeared to me to be Maddux keeps the Cubs in the game and Wood does something to keep the other team in the game. This is not a knock on Wood, but it seems that whenever he pitches the Cubs are up by one, tied, or losing (I realize that's not always Wood's fault). While the number of wins is not always the best way to measure a starting pitcher's success, it is still the one that everyone points to (20-win season, 300-win career, etc.).

[badger1679666666]

Besides the health issue, the difference between Wood and Maddux always appeared to me to be Maddux keeps the Cubs in the game and Wood does something to keep the other team in the game. This is not a knock on Wood, but it seems that whenever he pitches the Cubs are up by one, tied, or losing (I realize that's not always Wood's fault). While the number of wins is not always the best way to measure a starting pitcher's success, it is still the one that everyone points to (20-win season, 300-win career, etc.).

 

I would like you to tell me what Woods career Run Support numbers are. I'd also like to know how many 1-0, 2-1, 3-2, 2-0, 3-0. and even 4-1, 4-2, 4-3 games he's lost. He still is like 18 games over 500.

[Cubzfan64]

Why all the Wood hating in this thread?

 

Mark my words, by the end of this year, he'll be back to 2003 form, and then it will all dissipate.

 

It won't dissipate at all - especially if his option vests. Those who like Maddux and are happy with his performance, like him - those who don't, don't and that's ultimately all that matters in these kind of discussions.

 

It's mostly a matter of being stubborn and the inability to see other's viewpoints that keeps these things going.

[CubinNY]

I just can't help myself. I don't want to post in here, but I cannot resist.

 

Since Maddux came back to the Cubs his team has won 29 of the 49 games he has pitched. That is a win % of .591 (20 and 13 last year, 9 and 7 this year). That tells me he is a quality pitcher. We can argue about the money, but I am hard pressed to believe that some "in house" farm hand could post those numbers.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I just can't help myself. I don't want to post in here, but I cannot resist.

 

Since Maddux came back to the Cubs his team has won 29 of the 49 games he has pitched. That is a win % of .591 (20 and 13 last year, 9 and 7 this year). That tells me he is a quality pitcher. We can argue about the money, but I am hard pressed to believe that some "in house" farm hand could post those numbers.

 

In that same time, he's posted a 4.19 ERA, I think one of our farm hands could do that.

[CubinNY]

I just can't help myself. I don't want to post in here, but I cannot resist.

 

Since Maddux came back to the Cubs his team has won 29 of the 49 games he has pitched. That is a win % of .591 (20 and 13 last year, 9 and 7 this year). That tells me he is a quality pitcher. We can argue about the money, but I am hard pressed to believe that some "in house" farm hand could post those numbers.

 

In that same time, he's posted a 4.19 ERA, I think one of our farm hands could do that.

 

You are totally missing the point. Look, I understand the math. But, ERA isn't all there is to the equation. I have neither the time nor the inclination to get into another one of these discussions. I agree to disagree. Done.

[Chocolate Milk]

I just can't help myself. I don't want to post in here, but I cannot resist.

 

Since Maddux came back to the Cubs his team has won 29 of the 49 games he has pitched. That is a win % of .591 (20 and 13 last year, 9 and 7 this year). That tells me he is a quality pitcher. We can argue about the money, but I am hard pressed to believe that some "in house" farm hand could post those numbers.

 

In that same time, he's posted a 4.19 ERA, I think one of our farm hands could do that.

 

What gives you that idea?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I just can't help myself. I don't want to post in here, but I cannot resist.

 

Since Maddux came back to the Cubs his team has won 29 of the 49 games he has pitched. That is a win % of .591 (20 and 13 last year, 9 and 7 this year). That tells me he is a quality pitcher. We can argue about the money, but I am hard pressed to believe that some "in house" farm hand could post those numbers.

 

In that same time, he's posted a 4.19 ERA, I think one of our farm hands could do that.

 

What gives you that idea?

 

Past performance by those farm hands, plus the sheer quantity of them. Even if they were slightly worse, the savings would still make it worthwhile.

[Chocolate Milk]

I just can't help myself. I don't want to post in here, but I cannot resist.

 

Since Maddux came back to the Cubs his team has won 29 of the 49 games he has pitched. That is a win % of .591 (20 and 13 last year, 9 and 7 this year). That tells me he is a quality pitcher. We can argue about the money, but I am hard pressed to believe that some "in house" farm hand could post those numbers.

 

In that same time, he's posted a 4.19 ERA, I think one of our farm hands could do that.

 

What gives you that idea?

 

Past performance by those farm hands, plus the sheer quantity of them. Even if they were slightly worse, the savings would still make it worthwhile.

 

Past preformance indicates that they preform at a lower level.

 

I suppose I'm not willing to accept a reduction in preformance to save a few million dollars in a professional sport that doesn't have a salary cap.