Kemp triple crown bid

[Sammy Sofa]

I guess Miguel Cabrera would be the modern poster child for that. Dunn would be another example (before the whole DH debacle). Plus there's ARod going to the Yankees. Edited September 25, 2011 by Sammy Sofa

[USSoccer]

4. How often does a big name played move off of position? How often does it end well? The last one that I truly remember is the Jose Reyes situation back when the Mets signed Kaz Matsui, and Reyes was not yet established enough as a big leaguer to have any significant say. Our own Soriano was asked to move from LF to CF, but that was to increase his value and make it seem like he was worth 138 million. It didn't work out anyway. While Kemp would already be paid in your scenario, we're still talking about an MLB veteran in his prime who's settled and established himself within the game as a CF. It's not going to be a simple or easy move, and it's one that might frustrate this new big money bat. I'm a don't piss off the talent guy...

 

Depends on how "far" you're moving them off-position. Personally I don't think someone like Kemp moving from CF to a corner OF spot would be a dealbreaker. Soriano isn't that good of an example since you're talking about a dicey defender bounced from being a middle infielder to being an outfielder. Moving from CF to RF isn't as drastic for someone who has been an OF his entire MLB career. Now, I'm not declaring that Kemp will do this or that he would be fine doing so, but on the scale of moving guys from their traditional position it seems relatively minor (plus I think he's actually better suited defensively for a corner OF spot anyway).

 

That doesn't answer the question though. There aren't too many established guys who get asked to move that I can think of. There's always talk of a move a'comin, but I can't remember too many guys actually making the move.

 

Alex Rodriguez/Derek Jeter?

[Guest]

The thing is, I don't think a guy is going to complain about shifting to a COF position if the guy in CF is truly a better defender. Brett Jackson definitely is a better CF than Kemp.

[Guest]

Pujols is the most successful example I can think of for someone who switched positions multiple times.

 

Braun with the Brewers.

 

Both Uptons were moved off their positions.

 

lots and lots of players get moved. Happens all the time.

[Sammy Sofa]

I think Monsters vs. Monster is talking about players who were switched in their prime as opposed to early in their careers.

[Guest]

I think Monsters vs. Monster is talking about players who were switched in their prime as opposed to early in their careers.

Players move off the skill positions as they get older all the time. Ernie Banks & Cal Ripken immediately come to mind as guys that moved from SS to 1B and 3B, respectively. Mickey Mantle got moved all over the diamond after he turned 30. Plenty of other HOF caliber players, too. If they can move, so can Kemp.

 

Bottom line is I don't think he'll complain if the Cubs have a better fielding CF and they are paying him $15+M per year.

[Sammy Sofa]

I think Monsters vs. Monster is talking about players who were switched in their prime as opposed to early in their careers.

Players move off the skill positions as they get older all the time. Ernie Banks & Cal Ripken immediately come to mind as guys that moved from SS to 1B and 3B, respectively. Mickey Mantle got moved all over the diamond after he turned 30. Plenty of other HOF caliber players, too. If they can move, so can Kemp.

 

Bottom line is I don't think he'll complain if the Cubs have a better fielding CF and they are paying him $15+M per year.

 

Oh, I'm totally with you on this. I'm just trying to clarify what I think he was asking for.

[Rob]

Depends on how "far" you're moving them off-position. Personally I don't think someone like Kemp moving from CF to a corner OF spot would be a dealbreaker. Soriano isn't that good of an example since you're talking about a dicey defender bounced from being a middle infielder to being an outfielder. Moving from CF to RF isn't as drastic for someone who has been an OF his entire MLB career. Now, I'm not declaring that Kemp will do this or that he would be fine doing so, but on the scale of moving guys from their traditional position it seems relatively minor (plus I think he's actually better suited defensively for a corner OF spot anyway).

 

That doesn't answer the question though. There aren't too many established guys who get asked to move that I can think of. There's always talk of a move a'comin, but I can't remember too many guys actually making the move. While I agree that moving Kemp from CF to RF isn't asking anything crazy and it's one I've been pushing as much as anyone, I just don't think it's something that's likely. There's a team who'll pay the price for him to man CF for them.

 

Current players who moved from CF to a corner OF after being 'established':

 

Josh Hamilton

Carlos Beltran

Torii Hunter

Vernon Wells

Juan Pierre

Andruw Jones

Cody Ross

David DeJesus

Mike Cameron

Corey Patterson

 

You'll probably see Grady Sizemore and maybe Marlon Byrd join this list next year. I left off a few iffy names like Carlos Gonzalez who maybe played a higher percentage of their games in one spot, but never really settled in there. Also most players who don't get any real starting time.

 

Obviously some of those are more important than others... but it just serves to prove guys do get moved for a variety of reasons. Hell, if we expand what we're looking at a bit more, we can point out that Michael Young went into this season without a position at all.

[Geech]

It's not exactly the same, but Soriano moved from second to LF during his prime. I seem to recall that he complained about it, but it worked out well for him.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

I guess Miguel Cabrera would be the modern poster child for that. Dunn would be another example (before the whole DH debacle). Plus there's ARod going to the Yankees.

 

Cabrera ate and drank himself off of 3B. ARod moved for a fellow future HOF. Dunn shouldn't even be in the conversation. Anyway, who would the Cubs be moving Kemp to RF for? Brett Jackson? Put yourself in Kemps shoes and ask why he'd do that for some rookie/2nd year? Money? Money wont be a problem because anyone pursuing him will know they have to pay for him.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

It's not exactly the same, but Soriano moved from second to LF during his prime. I seem to recall that he complained about it, but it worked out well for him.

 

Yes but he moved bc no one thought he was a good 2B defensively. He was a reeeeeaaaaallllyy obviously bad 2B.

[Sammy Sofa]

I guess Miguel Cabrera would be the modern poster child for that. Dunn would be another example (before the whole DH debacle). Plus there's ARod going to the Yankees.

 

Cabrera ate and drank himself off of 3B. ARod moved for a fellow future HOF. Dunn shouldn't even be in the conversation. Anyway, who would the Cubs be moving Kemp to RF for? Brett Jackson? Put yourself in Kemps shoes and ask why he'd do that for some rookie/2nd year?

 

Wait, wait, wait...how can you just brush off any of those? You talk like they all had no choice in the matter and just had to take it but then turn around and talk like teams will have tiptoe around Kemp and kowtow to his demands or else he'll...what? He'll do it because the team who signed him is asking/telling him to do so and because he's just sliding from CF to RF, hardly some kind of astronomical leap and not nearly as unusual as you were thinking, as this thread has shown.

[Sammy Sofa]

It's not exactly the same, but Soriano moved from second to LF during his prime. I seem to recall that he complained about it, but it worked out well for him.

 

Yes but he moved bc no one thought he was a good 2B defensively. He was a reeeeeaaaaallllyy obviously bad 2B.

 

I thought it was also because they already had Vidro and nowhere else to put him.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Pujols is the most successful example I can think of for someone who switched positions multiple times.

 

Braun with the Brewers.

 

Both Uptons were moved off their positions.

 

lots and lots of players get moved. Happens all the time.

 

Oh man I should have read the whole thread before replying...

 

Pujols - Like Kemp was moved around until they found a spot where he'd stay. For Pujols that was 1B. Kemp has spent the last 3 years in CF, and hasn't really done anything else. A few games in RF and a couple times DHing...that's about it.

 

Braun - Bad 3B who had few supporters there.

 

Both Uptons were moved in the minors. Both are amongst the best defenders at their ML positions.

 

Next list:

 

Josh Hamilton - Done to keep him healthy. Still has played over 70 games at CF in the past two years.

Carlos Beltran - Done to keep him healthy and only after his prime years.

Torii Hunter - Done to keep him healthy, and only after his prime years.

Vernon Wells - Done because he was no longer a very good CF and also to keep his knees healthy after years on turf.

Juan Pierre - ??

Andruw Jones - Even as he ballooned in size he stayed in CF. Only when he absolutely physically couldn't handle it...

Cody Ross - ??

David DeJesus - A solid enough example I guess, but has dealt with injuries and nowhere near the player Kemp is.

Mike Cameron - Yeah, no one touched Mike Cameron in CF until his mid-late 30's.

Corey Patterson - ??

 

?? = Who cares, they weren't all that good anyway. Moved from starter to bench before they started moving positions IIRC.

 

CR - As far as Jackson definitely being a better ML CF than Kemp...That's another one I wish the Cubs luck in explaining to Kemp and his reps. Jackson would have to be downright special in CF to hold off an in his prime AS CF.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'm really curious as to why you think sliding from CF to RF is such a drastic change (especially for someone who arguably projects better defensively from a corner OF spot as opposed to CF).

 

I also don't know why you would think it would such a huge slight for the Cubs to approach this like, "hey, Matt, we're paying you this ginormous contract and you're hitting between Starlin Castro and Prince Fielder. We've got this Jackson kid doing well in CF while we've got a glaring hole in RF that you'd be perfect for with your offensive output and defensive ability. How about you slide over there?"

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

I'm really curious as to why you think sliding from CF to RF is such a drastic change (especially for someone who arguably projects better defensively from a corner OF spot as opposed to CF).

 

I also don't know why you would think it would such a huge slight for the Cubs to approach this like, "hey, Matt, we're paying you this ginormous contract and you're hitting between Starlin Castro and Prince Fielder. We've got this Jackson kid doing well in CF while we've got a glaring hole in RF that you'd be perfect for with your offensive output and defensive ability. How about you slide over there?"

 

Well then keep in mind that you're the one saying I'm calling it a drastic change. I'm calling it an unlikely one. It takes extraordinary circumstance to move an in their prime established star. What if his reply to "we've got this Jackson kid doing well in CF" is "who the f is Jackson?" Why wouldn't he just pick the team who says "hey, you're kicking ass and taking names as a CF. You're a big guy so there's the chance we move you off of there late in the contract, but for now you're our CF through and through?"

 

As far as before, I was not brushing what you said aside. I was giving context to what you said. Cabrera wasn't moved for the hell of moving him. Cabrera was moved because he refused to stay in shape and generally had crap habits as a young player that cost him the lean body he came into the league with. He has only now started cutting the crap. He also had a terrible reputation defensively. While both you and I question Kemp as a CF, he doesn't have the kind of reputation Cabrera had/has defensively. ARod was moved because the SS on the team who could afford to pick up the largest player contract in sports history happened to be the game's other premier SS, and that team's most decorated and best player since maybe as far back as Mantle. Nothing like that is fitting with the circumstance of Kemp's maybe move upon joining the Cubs.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'm really curious as to why you think sliding from CF to RF is such a drastic change (especially for someone who arguably projects better defensively from a corner OF spot as opposed to CF).

 

I also don't know why you would think it would such a huge slight for the Cubs to approach this like, "hey, Matt, we're paying you this ginormous contract and you're hitting between Starlin Castro and Prince Fielder. We've got this Jackson kid doing well in CF while we've got a glaring hole in RF that you'd be perfect for with your offensive output and defensive ability. How about you slide over there?"

 

Well then keep in mind that you're the one calling it a drastic change. I'm calling it an unlikely one. It takes extraordinary circumstance to move an in their prime established star. What if his reply to "we've got this Jackson kid doing well in CF" is "who the f is Jackson?" Why wouldn't he just pick the team who says "hey, you're kicking ass and taking names as a CF. You're a big guy so there's the chance we move you off of there late in the contract, but for now you're our CF through and through?"

 

As far as before, I was not brushing what you said aside. I was giving context to what you said. Cabrera wasn't moved for the hell of moving him. Cabrera was moved because he refused to stay in shape and generally had crap habits as a young player that cost him the lean body he came into the league with. He has only now started cutting the crap. ARod was moved because the SS on the team who could afford to pick up the largest player contract in sports history happened to be the game's other premier SS, and that team's franchise player. Nothing like that is fitting with the circumstance of Kemp's maybe move upon joining the Cubs.

 

Cabrera, Dunn and ARod being moved were not "extraordinary" circumstances. I'm sorry, they just weren't. The only thing remotely "extraordinary" about any of them is that ARod was moved instead of an obviously inferior SS. And regardless of all of your reasoning you're ignoring the key point; all of those players could have refused or made a stink or whatever you think Kemp will do. It's not like gaining weight suddenly meant that Cabrera had to just accept a move from 3B. Dunn didn't have to accept being moved from the OF to 1B. ARod didn't have to accept being moved from SS to 3B. Yet they all did. It's not like Kemp has something that would make him an exception in that type of situation. If he signs with the Cubs and they want him to play RF he'll play RF.

 

Look, maybe Kemp is the type of guy who values playing CF more than anything and he would turn down the biggest deal being offered just to ensure he stays there instead of moving to RF. I sincerely doubt that he is (I sincerely doubt almost any player is). If the Cubs are offering the best deal out there and their only "catch" is that they want him to play RF instead of CF I would be very surprised if he turned it down and took less money and/or fewer years to play somewhere else. Money is what talks, not playing CF instead of RF, especially when the player can easily play either spot.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Sammy Sofa

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Yes but he moved bc no one thought he was a good 2B defensively. He was a reeeeeaaaaallllyy obviously bad 2B.

 

I thought it was also because they already had Vidro and nowhere else to put him.

 

That definitely to probably played into it, but Soriano had amongst the worst reputations in baseball defensively. He was never a good defensive 2B, or anything close to it really. Neither the Yankees or Rangers were two teams who really were known to care for defense in the 2000's either.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Cabrera, Dunn and ARod being moved were not "extraordinary" circumstances. I'm sorry, they just weren't.

 

Shenanigans, particularly in ARod's case. The other two were not in Kemp's class of athlete as major leaguers, neither worked hard to stay in defensive type shape, both had poor defensive reputations, and both were moved as many expected they would be. They were the perfect storm of circumstance that would require a positional move.

 

The only thing remotely "extraordinary" about any of them is that ARod was moved instead of an obviously inferior SS. And regardless of all of your reasoning you're ignoring the key point; all of those players could have refused or made a stink or whatever you think Kemp will do. It's not like gaining weight suddenly meant that Cabrera had to just accept a move from 3B. Dunn didn't have to accept being moved from the OF to 1B. ARod didn't have to accept being moved from SS to 3B. Yet they all did.

 

An obviously inferior SS who was still one of the premier SSs in the sport, a future HOF himself, and the premier player for that franchise. Those are nothing things that describe Brett Jackson. The only one of those guys who had any right to make a stink was ARod, as both of the other two are not guys who kept themsleves in tip top shape like ARod or Kemp. Moving ARod vs. Jeter was one of the biggest controversies in NY sports at the time. I even got into debates with writers like Lupica and Vaccaro out here because it was *the* baseball topic of the '04-'05 offseason.

 

What kind of choice did those guys have? "Hey ARod, nobody likes you already because of the dumb amount of money you make and you're entering the town of one of the best SSs to ever live. That SS has helped bring 4 rings to the Yankees, while you have none. He's also the captain of the team and arguably the most decorated Yankee since Mantle. Want his job?" "Hey Cabrera/Dunn, we know you love D almost as much as you love hitting, but you're both starting to resemble tubs of lard. You have the choice to get in shape and work on your D or take this 1B mitt."

 

Look, maybe Kemp is the type of guy who values playing CF more than anything and he would turn down the biggest deal being offered just to ensure he stays there instead of moving to RF. I sincerely doubt that he is (I sincerely doubt almost any player is). If the Cubs are offering the best deal out there and their only "catch" is that they want him to play RF instead of CF I would be very surprised if he turned it down and took less money and/or fewer years to play somewhere else. Money is what talks, not playing CF instead of RF, especially when the player can easily play either spot.

 

I sincerely believe the Cubs would not offer that catch at all. What reason do they have to? The numbers say he's not a great defensive CF, but he's certainly better than guys like Cabrera, Soriano (who had speed and conditioning, but nothing resembling polish to his defensive game at 2B), and Dunn were at their positions. There's no All Star/future HOF CF here sitting in his way of taking his job like there was with ARod. Not to mention that there's the chance that he really does like being an All Star CF.

[Sammy Sofa]

Look, you can dance around it all you want but Kemp isn't some kind of special case when it comes to refusing to move to a new position. If the team he's signed with wants him to switch positions he doesn't somehow have more leverage than the other people being listed. You ask "what choice did those guys have?" as if Kemp would have a choice. If he signs with the Cubs and then they tell him they're moving him to RF for the good of the team, boom, it's done. It's also not like he's putting up numbers that hinge on him being in CF for him to be an AS.

[Guest]

Just ask Ernie to talk to Kemp about the position switch - what can Kemp say to Ernie Banks about it? Or let Kemp play CF for one year, then switch him to RF. Or any number of solutions.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Just ask Ernie to talk to Kemp about the position switch - what can Kemp say to Ernie Banks about it? Or let Kemp play CF for one year, then switch him to RF. Or any number of solutions.

 

What if he handled CF well enough to make that sudden move seem off?

 

Another solution would be to keep him in CF until it's abundantly clear that he's declining, as would happen to most other high end CFs if asked to move at all.

[Guest]

Just ask Ernie to talk to Kemp about the position switch - what can Kemp say to Ernie Banks about it? Or let Kemp play CF for one year, then switch him to RF. Or any number of solutions.

 

What if he handled CF well enough to make that sudden move seem off?

 

Another solution would be to keep him in CF until it's abundantly clear that he's declining, as would happen to most other high end CFs if asked to move at all.

I think it would be fine to keep him in CF until you've got one of the outstanding young CF's in the system ready to take over Wrigley. Jackson is good enough in CF, but I don't know that I'd worry about having him in RF and Kemp in CF if it came to that.

 

I don't really see this as any kind of a barrier if Kemp is available.

[Rob]

Okay, the argument has shifted from just an established player moving, but an established in-their-prime star.

 

Here's an admittedly incomplete list of Hall of Fame players whose careers started after 1900 who were already established at a position and changed positions sometime betwen the ages of 24 and 33 (catchers excluded). I just went down the list on baseball reference and clicked on guys whom I seemed to recall a position change for.

 

Ernie Banks moved off SS at age 30.

George Brett moved from 3B to 1B at age 33.

Rod Carew moved from 2B to 1B at age 29.

Andre Dawson moved from CF to RF at age 28.

Hank Greenberg moved from 1B to LF at age 28.

Rickey Henderson moved from LF to CF at age 24, then back from CF to LF at age 28.

Al Kaline went from RF to CF at age 29, then back to RF at age 31.

Until very late in his career, Harmon Killebrew never really settled down at a position... spending a year or two at 1B, 3B and LF and shuffling through all of them again later in his career.

Fred Lindstrom went from 3B to OF at age 24.

Willie McCovey spent his first 3 years at 1B, then moved to the OF, then back to 1B at age 27.

I'm not even going to try to list all of Paul Molitor's position changes. Rest assured, they started early and never stopped.

Stan Musial moved from OF to 1B at age 33.

Tony Perez moved from 3B to 1B at age 29.

Kirby Puckett moved from CF to RF at age 33.

Sam Rice moved from CF to RF at age 32.

Frank Robinson moved plenty between 1B, LF, and RF beginning early in his career.

Jackie Robinson moved from 2B to OF at age 33.

Babe Ruth switched from P to OF, obviously... but he also spent almost his entire career splitting games between LF and RF every season.

Joe Sewell moved from SS to 3B at age 29.

Al Simmons moved from CF to LF at age 25.

Duke Snider began moving from CF to RF at age 31.

Carl Yastrzemski played in the OF til moving off for 1B at age 29. He spent one year there, moved back to the OF for one more year, then back to 1B for most of the rest of his career.

And of course there's Robin Yount switching from SS to CF at at 28.

 

Players change position. Even good ones. Stop pretending it's such a big deal.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Look, you can dance around it all you want but Kemp isn't some kind of special case when it comes to refusing to move to a new position. If the team he's signed with wants him to switch positions he doesn't somehow have more leverage than the other people being listed. You ask "what choice did those guys have?" as if Kemp would have a choice. If he signs with the Cubs and then they tell him they're moving him to RF for the good of the team, boom, it's done. It's also not like he's putting up numbers that hinge on him being in CF for him to be an AS.

 

If I can't dance around that then you can't dance around the idea that it's very unlikely he gets asked to move in the first place. The guy won a GG in '09 as a CF at 24, and at 26 in '11 he probably had the best season of any CF in the game. Even if both of us agree that he's not great shakes as a CF and would be an excellent RF, that could be said about ANY competent CF. He's not an Andruw Jones, Van Slyke, or Mike Cameron out there in CF, but that's not going to be a good enough reason for a team to move him from CF.