vance_the_cubs_fan

At the 10:20 AM CDT Sportscenter Update on ESPN Radio 1000, Bruce Levine did say that the Cubs and White Sox have been discussing a Todd Walker trade. Hoops Who from the Sox that has cleared waivers would we even be remotely interested in?

I live closer to Houston than I do St. Louis so I deal with more Astro fans than I do Cardinal fans. They're also just as much a rival divisionally as the Cardinals are. Add to that the bad blood between the two teams last season combined with Berkman "The Faker", Craig "Mr. Lean into Pitches" Biggio, a stupid ballpark with a flagpole in fair terrirtory and a hill in CF, and a bunch of arrogant Texas bastages and I think you have the ingredients for full-blown hatred.

It's a joke, why? You honestly think that the Cy Young is a "no-brainer" this year? If that's true, then Cubs fans are the only ones in America that think that. cub fans and people who believe in legitimate statistical analysis beyond wins. Isn't it ironic that Cubs' fans don't believe in wins?? :lol: :wink: isnt it ironic that i have a bigger ignore list now WINK Look, I'm not sure why you all take offense to a Cardinal fan arguing in favor or Chris Carpenter. You all seen to take it so personally, using words like "dense", "joke", etc. Relax a little. The truth of the matter is that Cubs' fans aren't going to find a way to give Carpenter the benefit of the doubt (you hate us, just admit it, and I don't blame you), and Cardinal fans aren't going to find a way to give Clemens the benefit of the doubt. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. By most acounts, it's pretty much a dead heat right now. Pretending it's a "no-brainer" is just ignoring the obvious. What's interesting is that most of us, and I can accurately speak for myself here, hate the Astros just as much. Now, maybe my bias gets in the way when I say Lee should be the MVP, but there's no bias at work here. At least not on this side of the argument.

It's a joke, why? You honestly think that the Cy Young is a "no-brainer" this year? If that's true, then Cubs fans are the only ones in America that think that. cub fans and people who believe in legitimate statistical analysis beyond wins. Isn't it ironic that Cubs' fans don't believe in wins?? :lol: :wink: I think you may be stepping over the line toward trolling here. The wink doesn't change that. Why not start this debate at some other boards? Try http://www.orangewhoopass.com and see what they think. How about SOSH and see what they think? My guess is that those who value statistical analysis go with Clemens. Our argument has nothing to do with bias, yours however... :-k

Very well played.

I'm just going to say that I'm done with this argument until the season is over. Based on ALL the data that we have right now, I find it clear that Clemens is the rightful winner. (I'm not at all convinced the voters will agree, but that's besides the point.) I think the stats bear out that Clemens has pitched over the course of the season better than Carpenter, despitenthe fact that Carpenter has pitched superbly. I'm no longer going to be diverted to arguments about closer's ERA. Those who argue such are either being dense, difficult, or trying to derail an argument to take attention away from the real issues. Finally, I want to say that I derive no joy from arguing for Clemens. I hate both the Astros and Cardinals equally. If I were voting on bias alone, I'd pick Willis, but my baseball intelligence and integrity will not let me sway from the opinion that Clemens has been the best pitcher in the NL for this season and such deserves the Cy. Do not take my lack of response henceforth to be concession, simply a respite until the season is over when I then will evaluate all the data and re-enter the debate.

Based on the criteria that's been set for winning the Cy Young Award (win alot of games, keep your ERA respectable), it wouldn't be a travesty at all. And once again, if you're going to be dazzled by ERA, then be dazzled by Chad Cordero's ERA, not Roger Clemens'. If you're going to give it to the guy with the spectacular ERA, then you've got to give it to Cordero. If you're not going to give it to him because he hasn't pitched the innings that Clemens has, then you have to take it away from Clemens and give it to Carpenter, because Carpenter has pitched more innings than both Clemens AND Cordero. You can't have it both ways. Or, you could just give it to Roger Clemens because he's Roger Clemens, which seems to be the criteria that you're using. There's a huge difference in a starter's ERA and that of a one inning closer. If you can't understand that, we really have nothing left to discuss. My guess is that you understand that completely well and just bring it up to try to derail the point that Clemens ERA for a starter is something that indicates one of the greater pitching performances of this half-century. The fact is, I don't find your arguments too compelling. Closers and starters are different animals. The fact that Carpenter has pitched more innings than Clemens isn't that big a deal to me. Clemens has pitched 184.1 IP over 27 starts or 6.8 innings per start. Carpenter has pitched 204 IP over 27 starts or 7.5 innings per start. Carpenter is pitching roughly an inning more per game than Clemens. On the other hand, Cordero has only pitched 66.1 IP, in 64 games so barely an inning per game. Not anything close to Clemens or Carpenter. It's an entirely different animal. So, yes I can discount what Cordero has done without immediately deferring to Carpenter. It's not a "double standard" as you imply.

Very little in Rusch's recent starts give me much confidence about this one. Hill should be getting this start.

I guess we'll know by the end of the day whether Walker is going to be dealt. I seriously hope that the Cubs realize how ignorant it would be tp deal him.

The same reason Oswalt has been more successful than Clemens this year.......because those pitchers held the opponent to fewer runs than the opponent scored in those games. Now I have a question for you: If Clemens is getting 3.6 runs per game, but giving up 1.5 runs per game, then why is he winning fewer than half of his games? A quick perusal of the game log will answer some of that. In one game, the Astros scored 9 runs and another game they scored 14 runs. Those outbursts will have an effect over the averages. Also, looking over that game log reveals how many times Clemens lost a start when allowing one or even no runs while he was in the game. It's ridiculous. I'm no fan of Clemens, but what he has done this season has earned him the Cy Young and I won't fault him based on the fact that the offense wouldn't show up when he was pitching. Carpenter has put together a Cy Young caliber season, but he hasn't pitched as effectively as Clemens. I refuse to base the award on wins as they are a team dependent stat. Considering the miniscule ERA that Clemens has maintained, I think it would be a travesty to give the award to anyone else.

Apparently Palmeiro needs earplugs to deal with the booing. Link http://msn.foxsports.com/id/4824826_36_1.jpg Am I the only one that finds this funny?

If I were voting, I'd still vote for Clemens. Nothing has changed the fact that Clemens has been the better pitcher. To me, Cy Young Award is to the best pitcher. That, folks, this season has been Clemens.

Mench would cost the Cardinals Reyes at least.

I understand all that...but surely someone wants to go....

Surely someone is interested in these tickets????

I agree...but it would be funny if they had a complete and utter collapse.

Buerhle is one of the biggest morons in the game. He really should keep his mouth shut. He's freaking hilarious. I wonder what his story will be the next time he gets his butt handed to him.

Around the Joe Horn selects Aaron Brooks, QB and Jerome Bettis, RB.

Todd was a seemingly happy Cub before Hutchinson got here. I don't think that makes a big difference, and they would have to get significant value to trade a guy who is that productive and that affordable next season. They have to get more than the scrub pitching prospects they've gotten so far. And since you can't get anybody's good 40 man roster people at this point, there's really no benefit in dealing Walker. Quoted because it sums up the argument perfectly. Unless you get a good, young productive player, it makes no sense to trade Walker. Since those players don't clear waivers, there's no good rationale for trading Walker.

Trading Lee over Walker isn't as crazy as it sounds. There's two factors at play here. First what you are paying the player, and what you could get for the player. First, Lee makes a lot more than Walker, so you'd expect greater production from a corner IF making that much money than you would from a 2b making 2.5 million as Walker is. The other question is, would trading Walker bring back a player whose caliber makes it worth losing his production at 2.5 million? I don't think so. Would trading Lee (something I'm not really advocating and don't think will actually happen) bring back enough to make it worth losing his projected production at 9 million? Maybe. Here are some deals for Lee I'd consider: Lee + Mitre to the Reds for Casey and Dunn. Lee and Williams to the Rangers for Teixeira and Mench. Lee to the Braves for LaRoche and Francoer. Lee to the Yankees for Rodriguez and cash. Lee to the Nationals for Wilkerson and Cordero. Lee to the Angels for Vlad. Lee to the Brewers for Sheets and Fielder. Now, I'm not saying any of those deals could realistically happen...but just saying I'd probably do each and every one of them if they did exist.

I would have been happy to get a broken-down pitching machine for Hollandsworth, so the fact that we actually received two human beings capable of playing baseball somewhere marks this down as a decent trade. It also means there's one less obstacle to Murton playing beginning September 1. (We still need to get rid of Burnitz to make it a certainty, but I'm holding out hope that Hendry is working on that one too.)

ChiCubsFan told me to select the Washington defense for him.

Thanks, Vance. I guess it isn't all AOL IP's, then. Just a few important ones like Bruce Miles. :? I don't normally use AOL, but my bellsouth dsl is down, so I'm using it right now.

I'm on AOL and getting through.

Ok...I was hoping to get the wife to agree on another trip to Chicago this year, but no dice. I have 4 tickets to see the Cubs play the Cardinals on Friday Sept 16. The seats are section 506, row 2. The face value is $17, so for the four $68. I'm taking best offers until Wednesday night. If you want them, pm your best offer. Don't worry about insulting me with a low offer, it may be the best one I recieve.