vance_the_cubs_fan

I just don't fault a pitcher because his team is shut-out or only scores one run on a day he pitches. A pitcher's job in the "win" equation is to give up as few runs as he can over as many innings as he can. He has little, since he bats I won't say no, control over how many runs his team scores. Clemens value decreases none if his team is unable to win; his team just failed to take advantage of the value he brings.

As a refresher, here is what Beane got for the other two of the "Big 3" Hudson: P Juan Cruz, P Dan Meyer, OF Charles Thomas Mulder: P Danny Haren, P Kiko Calero, C Daric Barton Of those 6 players, Haren (12-10, 3.86) has had the most success. Calero has been a good reliever, Cruz has been terrible, Thomas is hitting .109 in limited AB's. I haven't looked up the minor league stats. So what would be the Cubs equivalent of thos prospects? In asking that question, you can't look at what those prospects or players did this year, but how they were viewed prior to being acquired. That was their value (or perceived value) at the time of the trade. Hudson: Cruz (had completed a season as a top flight reliever). Dan Meyer (top pitching prospect in Braves system) and OF Thomas (4th OF with nice tools) Mulder: P Danny Haren (top pitcher in Cardinals system), Kiko Calero (serviceable reliever) and Daric Barton (top minor league hitter in Cardinals system) Applying that equivocation to the question, to get Zito, the Cubs would likely have to include a package of Rich Hill, Roberto Novoa, and Ryan Harvey. That's too steep in my opinion.

Carpenter is more effective that Clemens, Lidge, Izzy, Cordero..... everybody, in the late innings. So then you don't need Izzy then? Can the Cubs have him? Cause we're a team that believes the bullpen is there for a reason. Mainly so that you don't burn your starters into the ground when you have a huge lead on the division, and when they've only gone over 200 innings once. But I guess the playoffs aren't important right? BINGO!! That's been the crux of my argument for 35+ pages. No, the Cards DON'T need Izzy when Carpenter pitches. Which makes Izzy that much "fresher" for the other 4 starters. And it's not because Carpenter is being "burned into the ground". He's throwing fewer pitches than Clemens, actually. That's because he's so efficient. Which statistic would that fall under? His IP would be factored into his VORP, so it's included there. VORP doesn't break down specific situations, such as the one mentioned. I also doubt if VORP will tell us how much better Izzy (or another reliever) will pitch because he got that day off. I'd still rather go with specific metircs that measure what is than what if's when determining the better pitcher.

Is anyone starting to think Dusty is like some of my students who make up lies to fit the situation? I really just want him gone. It's past time for this.

Carpenter is more effective that Clemens, Lidge, Izzy, Cordero..... everybody, in the late innings. So then you don't need Izzy then? Can the Cubs have him? Cause we're a team that believes the bullpen is there for a reason. Mainly so that you don't burn your starters into the ground when you have a huge lead on the division, and when they've only gone over 200 innings once. But I guess the playoffs aren't important right? BINGO!! That's been the crux of my argument for 35+ pages. No, the Cards DON'T need Izzy when Carpenter pitches. Which makes Izzy that much "fresher" for the other 4 starters. And it's not because Carpenter is being "burned into the ground". He's throwing fewer pitches than Clemens, actually. That's because he's so efficient. Which statistic would that fall under? His IP would be factored into his VORP, so it's included there.

The Sox won't blow that lead, but they'll lose in the first round. I don't see them getting past any of the other teams likely to make the playoffs. Personally, I'm hoping they lose in three extremely embarrassing defeats.

It's funny, they say that the only stat we care about is ERA, but ignore VORP, RS, and EXP W/L. We've provide them some additonal stats, but they simply ignore it. And I'll say this for the last time. My case against Carpenter has nothing to do with his being a Cardinal. I hate the Astros, including Clemens, as much as I do the Cardinals. Ask my nephew how much I laughed at Clemens's shelling in the 2004 ASG. I hate the man, but I've got to give him his due. He's been a better pitcher than Carpenter this year, and therefore, should win the Cy Young. The ERA dictates all of those other numbers. It's like saying "I'm not eating sugar, I'm eating cake". ERA doesn't dictate those numbers, but it is part of the formula. Those numbers include many other facets, including your IP barometer. It's why Chad Cordero doesn't have as high a VORP than Clemens or Cordero. It's a cumlative stat. I'm sorry you can't understand that. I understand it perfectly. Clemens has a better VORP than Lidge. In fact, most of you think that Clemens is "the best" pitcher in baseball. Therefore, wouldn't you want Clemens pitching the 7th, 8th & 9th innings, instead of Lidge? Carpenter has a better VORP than Isringhausen. Therefore, the fact that Carpenter is pitching the 8th & 9th innings is superb. Or, do we just want the best VORP pitcher in the game when it fits YOUR agenda? I think there's a little more to managerial strategy than that. There's many reasons to lift a pitcher from a game, from his being tired, to getting a better match-up, to needing to use a pinch hitter. I think when evaluating pitchers that stats like VORP and RAAP are better indicators of a pitcher's performance than team dependent stats such as wins. I do value IP and a pitcher's ability to pitch deep into games and Carpenter deserves credit for that. On the other hand, when weighted along with runs saved and other metrics, it still isn't enough to make him the better pitcher. Could that change over the course of the next three weeks? Certainly. But at this point, Clemens still deserves the Cy Young as much as it may pain me to say so.

Hmmm.... the number of runs you allow effects how good of a pitcher you are? Never thought of that one... So Chad Cordero is your man? And I thought it was Roger Clemens. To save everyone some time. One of us: No, Clemens has been a good pitcher for many more innings than Cordero. K-Town: Then Carpenter should be better because of his extra IP. One of us: No, even with Carpenter's advantage in IP, Clemens still comes ahead in cumulative statistics such as VORP or Win Shares. At this point K-Town will either go into some bizarre situation to try and denounce Clemens, or he'll go with the wins/team success route, ignoring the previous point. There, now we don't have to have 3 more pages of nonsense. You forgot to include that K-Town will throw in accusations that I started the thread to bait some mythical Cardinal fans into an argument.

It's funny, they say that the only stat we care about is ERA, but ignore VORP, RS, and EXP W/L. We've provide them some additonal stats, but they simply ignore it. And I'll say this for the last time. My case against Carpenter has nothing to do with his being a Cardinal. I hate the Astros, including Clemens, as much as I do the Cardinals. Ask my nephew how much I laughed at Clemens's shelling in the 2004 ASG. I hate the man, but I've got to give him his due. He's been a better pitcher than Carpenter this year, and therefore, should win the Cy Young. The ERA dictates all of those other numbers. It's like saying "I'm not eating sugar, I'm eating cake". ERA doesn't dictate those numbers, but it is part of the formula. Those numbers include many other facets, including your IP barometer. It's why Chad Cordero doesn't have as high a VORP than Clemens or Cordero. It's a cumlative stat. I'm sorry you can't understand that.

It's funny, they say that the only stat we care about is ERA, but ignore VORP, RS, and EXP W/L. We've provide them some additonal stats, but they simply ignore it. And I'll say this for the last time. My case against Carpenter has nothing to do with his being a Cardinal. I hate the Astros, including Clemens, as much as I do the Cardinals. Ask my nephew how much I laughed at Clemens's shelling in the 2004 ASG. I hate the man, but I've got to give him his due. He's been a better pitcher than Carpenter this year, and therefore, should win the Cy Young.

Do you think they'll stop the game for an ovation when he gets it? ;)

The reason Clemens leads the VORP is because of his ERA though, right? It could be that his ERA is nearly a run better than Carpenter, yes.

There's no motive...then why did I start an AL Cy thread as well? I started the thread on a CUBS message board!!! If I really wanted to bait Cardinal fans, wouldn't I have started this on Cards Talk or the SportsCartel or BirdsontheBat? You really have some great insights into my motives...:roll: Want to tell me what I'm going to have for lunch while you're at it? Interestingly enough, you started the AL thread under "Baseball Discussion", and the NL thread under "Rivalries". Why didn't you start the thread on a Cardinal board? Because Cubs fans like yourself would be banned for calling Cardinal fans names on those boards, but it's perfectly acceptable here. Enjoy your lunch, whatever it turns out to be. I started it in rivalries because the two main contenders for the award are on rivals of the Cubs. I'd have done the same if Sheets and Oliver Perez were involved. I started the AL thread where it is, because it doesn't really concern our rivals unless you think Garland has a chance, which I don't. I've posted on a number of Cardinal boards and I've yet to be banned. And while you may act like a martyr here, I've been treated worse on CardsTalk for much less. Much of the treatment you've received here you've brought on yourself.

A Rueben sandwich. And you're going to make one for me out of the kindness of your heart. I'm really hungry. You really over-estimate the cafeteria here.

Fight the good fight, Amy. I've done my best, but you'll never get past the ERA thing. :) How about these stats? VORP- Clemens: 80.1 Carpenter: 73.9 Pitchers EXP W/L Carpenter: 16-7 Clemens: 15-4 Those two stats add a completely different perspective. Again, aren't those stats pretty much directly related to ERA? Or not? They take far more into account than just ERA and also factor in innings pitched which you seem to be so fond of. What they do not take into account is "team" performance.

There's no motive...then why did I start an AL Cy thread as well? I started the thread on a CUBS message board!!! If I really wanted to bait Cardinal fans, wouldn't I have started this on Cards Talk or the SportsCartel or BirdsontheBat? You really have some great insights into my motives...:roll: Want to tell me what I'm going to have for lunch while you're at it?

Fight the good fight, Amy. I've done my best, but you'll never get past the ERA thing. :) How about these stats? VORP- Clemens: 80.1 Carpenter: 73.9 Pitchers EXP W/L Carpenter: 16-7 Clemens: 15-4 Those two stats add a completely different perspective.

Fight the good fight, Amy. I've done my best, but you'll never get past the ERA thing. :) Not when Clemens' ERA is three quarters of a run better while seemingly every other category (minus wins and IP) is either a draw, or favors Clemens. Then no, you won't get past the ERA thing. I honestly believe that Carpenter is going to win the Cy Young. But this isn't a discussion on who will win it, it's a discussion on who should win it. And there are 32 pages of statistics proving that Clemens is having the better year (minus Carpenter's innings pitched and K Town's conspiracy theories on why Clemens doesn't throw complete games) K-Town: Yes, you are trying to bait people here by saying that. It's like your Prior comment from yesterday. There was absolutely no reason to say it other than to try and get people riled up here, but you said it anyway. Then when you were called on it, you backed down. But back to your question: If the ERA gap is only .3 by the end of the year (that is if Clemens goes up to 1.8 or 1.9 while Carp drops to 2.1), then Carp will probably deserve the award. But there is a huge difference between a .3 gap, and a .75 gap. It's more than ERA. Clemens has saved his team more runs over Carpenter this year. UK, do you have the updated numbers? And I agree BCB that he's trying to bait. Not only the Prior comment, but the one about Cubs and wins. He makes them and then retracts once called on it, but it doesn't stop him from making the comments. I think he's just pissed off that we won't fall prostrate and make the sign of the cross in front of the arch and say three hail Carpenter's.

I'm gonna have to root for the Phillies to get, I guess. I can't stand the Astros, not much a fan of the fish, and the Mets...bleh. I could live with the Nats getting it as well. I think I'll be pulling for the Braves once the playoffs begin.

I think that's what aggravates me the most. Rather than Dusty admitting it's been a problem and confessing it is something the coaching staff needs to work on improving, he instead blames it on rookies not learning in the minors, or players having too much job security, or whatever. I don't want to hear excuses, I want to see improvement. I wonder how my school would like it if instead of working toward improving my students ability, I simply sat around and offered new excuses on why they can't learn. I mean, I'm not supposed to teach this in 7th grade. Theys should have learned it before they had gotten to me. :roll:

With the number of rule V casualties we're looking at, I would not be surprised to see a major trade prior to the deadline of locking down the 40-man roster prior to the rule V draft. While there is a weak FA class, Hendry might target a high priced player from a small market team to fill a need.

It's becoming obvious he can't handle the heat. Dusty needs to get out the kitchen.

I'm gonna whoop all your asses!

Well, I figured it was time to debate another post-season award, so who's your AL Cy Young candidate. While in the NL, it's pretty much down to Clemens and Carpenter as the prime candidates, the AL Cy Young isn't so narrowed down. I think the prime guys (among starters) are Halladay, Santana, Colon, and Garland. Buherle might get some consideration as well. I'm sure there are others, and you can feel free to state the case for them as well. Some would argue for Rivera as the Cy Young winner, but I'm very hesitant to consider closers for the award. Here are some comparisons: ERA Halladay 2.41 Santana 3.07 Colon 3.24 Garland 3.28 Wins Halladay 12 Santana 13 Colon 18 Garland 17 Losses Halladay 4 Santana 6 Colon 6 Garland 8 BAA Halladay .225 Santana .212 Colon .248 Garland .255 QS% Halladay 74 Santana 71 Colon 68 Garland 70 K/9 Halladay 6.86 Santana 9.38 Colon 6.24 Garland 4.47 As I look at the numbers, I can eliminate Garland fairly easily. He started off well, especially in the win category for those that value it, but his numbers are easily the worst of the bunch. Santana and Halladay are my one and two. At first glance, I'd likely go with Halladay, but considering the amount of time he's missed, if I were voting, I'd have to cast it for Santana.

Going by ChiCubsFan's list, he selects QB, Joey Harrington.