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He was talking about Ronny's foot.

Okay, that was safe, and the other two weren't?

Okay, Joe. We KNOW he wasn't going to run haphazardly around the infield, and that instead he needed to prevent the run from scoring. Why are you still talking about it?

Well, how about that for a first hit?

http://counterculture.senseworldwide.net/archives/bender.jpg

Attaboy, Ronny.

I sure needed that glimpse of cameraman buttcrack.

Pie and Patterson are making me rhappy. :D

If Jones flames out completely, you know what I'd rather do than chase Abreu? What do the Mets need? Since they apparently have no intention of actually playing Victor Diaz, I'd see what it'd take to pry him away.

I have to agree with you. Their offense is starting to become scary. They *are* set to have a number of things go right. The question is whether this is self-sustaining success. Verlander, Bonderman, and Rogers are solid (the latter two are studs in the making). Maroth and Robertson are bad, which makes the performance of the other three that much more crucial. And their offense is pretty good, but not as good as it's playing right now. Maggs and Pudge couldn't be counted on going into the season, but if they're healthy and productive, they make a huge difference. Still, when Shelton comes back down to earth or Granderson struggles or somebody gets hurt, they're going to need guys like Monroe or Inge to step up, and I don't know if they're really good enough to do much at that point. it's a *much* better Detroit team than we've seen lately, though. I'm more thoroughly impressed with them and their future prospects than the Hype City Blue Jays.

Wow, I just realized I was in this league. And I'm winning 10-2! woo! <-- Prostate Dancers

I agree. Really Corey was a speed guy trying to also be a power guy. Very few can pull off that combo. Lots of guys pull off that combo. Corey's problem was pitch recognition and plate discipline (and possibly bat control). If he sacrifices his power, it won't make a bit of difference except to make him less productive unless he improves in the above abilities. You don't think when Corey was taking home run cuts and missing all the time, it was possible he was being undisciplined in doing so and sacraficing bat control? Not really. I don't think he was just haphazardly taking "home run cuts," or trying too hard to be a power hitter, though he always has been a power guy at all levels. I think it appeared that way because he was trying to catch up to balls whose locations/speed he was late in recognizing.

Screw that, I went ahead and picked him up in several of my drafts. :P Definitely a keeper.

I agree. Really Corey was a speed guy trying to also be a power guy. Very few can pull off that combo. Lots of guys pull off that combo. Corey's problem was pitch recognition and plate discipline (and possibly bat control). If he sacrifices his power, it won't make a bit of difference except to make him less productive unless he improves in the above abilities.

Oh lord.

Ah, I thought we were still talking about the preseason rankings. That changes things. The original ranking that was blasted to start this thread was before opening day. yes, before opening day. AKA....preseason. I'm not understanding the purpose of this statement?

Easy. Pitching is the vast majority of what produces those 27 outs, and the difference between the best fielder and the worst fielder at a given position is rarely anywhere nearly as big as the difference between the best hitter and even an average hitter--especially in the outfield. Dunn is a huge offensive producer and a liability in the field at possibly the least important defensive position. It's not a matter of having it "both ways." When a hitter is at the plate, the only person who can make an out is himself. That is not the case in the field. Outs will be made via strikeout, in the infield, or in other parts of the outfield that he has no effect on whatsoever, but he has an effect every time he comes to the plate. The situations are not parallel, and that's why not making outs at the plate is more important than making outs in the field. it absolutely is a matter of having it both ways. the concept is that outs are precious. avoid them on offense, get them on defense. but you want to say x outs are really important, y outs are not so important. it's all about winning ballgames. both are incredibly important. Really? Is that what I want to say? That's surprising. I was pretty sure I wanted to say that an individual player's ability to avoid outs offensively is more valuable than his ability to make outs in the field in regards to winning games. But hey, what do I know? Why is this fair to say? Because there is a predictive difference between the two? Even the article says that just there can be many other factors, from other fielders to the pitchers to the type of park the player plays in. You're making a rather bold assumption here. The model only takes into account outs recorded versus non-zero out-making opportunities. It doesn't have any quality to suggest that they're anything specific--not bloopers or warning track line shots, or just fly balls he loses in the sun. Assuming that half would be doubles is pretty much just unfounded speculation on your part. I agree that a player should be held accountable for what he surrenders defensively in being evaluated, but you seem to be employing a highly faulty means of doing so. It's also noteworthy that despite your suggestion of this being the difference between a "bad defender and average defender," the stats you got this from suggest it's the difference between an average defender and a good defender. Equally good defenders on the list are Carlos Lee and Moises Alou, who sandwich Mench near the top of the list. And you're not taking into account the difference in the predicted data, which is the entire purpose of the data in that article. I haven't seen anybody "pretend" that his fielding has no effect. I've seen people suggest that his fielding isn't as inept as frequently suggested, and that his offense far outweighs whatever weaknesses he has in the field.

Wow. And we have jock jones. Objection, your honor -- relevance.

Ah, I thought we were still talking about the preseason rankings. That changes things.

And if Detroit got hot for 5 games in the middle of July, nobody would be making such a huge deal about it. of course not, but they have justified their ranking. I don't think a hot stretch of less than 5% of the season justifies anything. For all of Detroit's hotness, they're an entire one game ahead of Cleveland. Nobody has justified their rankings yet. I am happy I started Verlander today, though.

Easy. Pitching is the vast majority of what produces those 27 outs, and the difference between the best fielder and the worst fielder at a given position is rarely anywhere nearly as big as the difference between the best hitter and even an average hitter--especially in the outfield. Dunn is a huge offensive producer and a liability in the field at possibly the least important defensive position. It's not a matter of having it "both ways." When a hitter is at the plate, the only person who can make an out is himself. That is not the case in the field. Outs will be made via strikeout, in the infield, or in other parts of the outfield that he has no effect on whatsoever, but he has an effect every time he comes to the plate. The situations are not parallel, and that's why not making outs at the plate is more important than making outs in the field.

And if Detroit got hot for 5 games in the middle of July, nobody would be making such a huge deal about it.

After years, I still can't get used to how Messmer sings "and the rockets' red glarrrrr, the bombs bursting in arrrrrrrr"

Jones sucks, but let's not overreact. If we didn't have Jones on the team Hendry could have given more money to players who deserve bigger contracts, like Neifi and Rusch... I'm fine with that, but Jones is Roberto Clemente compared to Patterson. What is this comparison based on? Ummm...Sorry but I'd take Jones over Patterson any day of the week. Patterson can't even start for Baltimore. Given that Jones plays RF and Patterson plays CF, why are we having this discussion? Apples to apples, please. Patterson v. Pierre and Burnitz v. Jones. Um...look at the quote that started the discussion. Should have just kept Corey and stuck him in RF. Jones sucks. You were saying?

Todd Walker isn't exactly a gold glover, himself... Yeah, but he's not at that status because he makes a lot of errant throws.