Warpticon

I agree ... I would rather see him there than some of these scrubs that have been mentioned. In 03 he only played a half season. Come on, while Corey has the skills he hasn't put it together he's a career .250 hitter with and OBP under .300. Even in 03 his OBP was only .329 a mere .030 higher than his average. He has no plate discipline, no patience, and is too stubborn to try something different. His defense is good but to say he was above average in 03 and 04 is almost laughable. If he were some other teams prospect we would have all labeled him a bust a long time ago. So...finishing above the pack in '03 and middle of the pack in '04 in OPS at the position makes him *not* average to above average in those years? I'm trying to figure this out.

I wouldn't mind Sanders on a one year deal, or maybe a cheap two-year. He's still pretty productive. I hate to harp, but I just cannot fathom that Jones could be our starting RF, or how that could be considered in any way good.

He got a lot of time to rest when he was with the Cubs.

Seconded! Oh yeah. A bird in hand is better than 2 in the bush. And well, this is a BIG bird. I like having a thread with just news on this deal but its going to take weeks for this thing to go down. Man, I must need sleep, because I read that wrong and was thinking "aren't you a little *too* excited about this trade opportunity?"

Yeah, major league initial stints often don't tell the big picture that well. Player A: 3-1, 3.22, 39 k & 17 bb in 44 IP, 1.28 WHIP Player B: 1-2, 15.26, 4 k & 8 bb in 7.2 IP, 2.59 WHIP It should be pretty obvious, but Player A is Juan Cruz. Player B is Carlos Zambrano.

Part of the argument here is durability, though, so I don't like using rate stats when that's the case. Ramirez+Lugo = 43 Win Shares, 36 offensive Tejada+Mora = 45 Win Shares, 36 offensive And I don't like Win Shares at all. :D Let's look at it this way: Tejada is the best offensive SS in baseball still playing SS. Bar none. I'd put ARam behind: - ARod - Wright - Ensberg - Chipper - Rolen Again, don't get me wrong. I really like ARam. But Tejada is a better SS than ARam is a 3B. But I'll emphasize again that I wouldn't do the trade if I had to give up Aramis. Okay, I don't understand. ARod? Absolutely. Wright? Very, very well-rounded and young. Justifiable. Chipper? Maybe, but his health has been as big an issue as Ramirez's--more so, actually, and the production has been comparable. Rolen is generally better, but until he's proven healthy, there are serious question marks. But... Ensberg? Did you forget 2004? Great 2005, fine 2003, but '04 was garbage. Not exactly consistent. And he's two years older than Ramirez, to boot. Considering he didn't blow Ramirez away in 2005 in terms of production, and Ramirez *did* blow Ensberg away in '04, I'd certianly value Ramirez higher right now. With Lowell gone from Florida, though, you could have included Cabrera and certainly would have gotten no argument.

Honestly, I'd rather keep Patterson and try him in RF than sign Jacque Jones. Jones and Patterson are basically the same player, only Patterson is four years younger and has a chance of being much better than he was last year. Factor in that Jones will also be more expensive, and bleh. Of course, I'd also rather bring back Burnitz than go with Jones. Jones is a very poor RF option.

Wow, when did this turn into a hottest chick poll thread? I still don't know what Cohn said about Dusty.

Well said. Nitpick- Only Pinto is LHP, Nolasco and Mitre are RHP. I don't know why I thought Nolasco was a lefty. Oh, well.

"Clogged bases" is a good thing. It means people didn't get out. It means more people have a chance to score. Getting to second on a double or third on a triple or actually SCORING on a home run is a lot more valuable than a seeing eye single and a stolen base, especially considering the frequency with which Pierre gets caught. But hey, getting caught unclogs the bases, doesn't it?

Can you explain why a lack of power is somehow desirable in a "true" leadoff hitter? Because it sure looks like that's what you're saying. Also, how does more power disqualify someone from being a leadoff candidate? If Pierre isn't running himself into a ton of outs, it could be pretty good. If he has another year like last year, it could be pretty ugly. So because they won in spite of his defense, the same thing is suppoesd to happen to us? How are his defensive deficiencies in any way dismissable? That's part of who he is, and what constitutes his value as a player. (yay, incomplete thoughts!) No, you can't argue with his ring--it probably won't say much back. Do you realize that Lenny Harris also got a ring that year? Do you want to trade for him? I don't mind Pierre, but I don't see him as anything special. He's an extremely one-dimensional player who can be useful if he's on a roll in that one dimension. If he's not, he's a detriment. I don't like giving up three decent young arms, especially two lefties, for a one year rental of a player who isn't special.

Yeah, that makes it better. 3 guys for just Pierre was not looking good. Two minor leaguers for Pierre and another prospect has potential, depending on who the prospect is. I'd still rather not have Pierre, butat least he's not total garbage.

I find it rather hilarious that so frequently this group gets called a hivemind or accuesd of all having the same opinions when certain topics inspire such vehement argumentation, which pretty much necessitates that to not be true.

Before I say this, let me say that I want Cedeno starting over Neifi as much as anyone, and that I really like Ronny. However, Ronny will not be Lugo, in that he probably can't leadoff. He's a bit of a free swinger, so his OBP is highly reliant on his AVG. For the past year or so, his average has been obscenely high, but that's not likely to be maintainable on the ML level. Really, I was under the impression that we was very patient for a young guy making his first ML appearances... :? He maintains an IsoD of around .050. That's okay, but nothing special. He'll have to maintain a .300 average or thereabout to keep a leadoff-quality OBP in the long term unless he improves his walk rate.

My friend put his fist through a support pillar in his basement, breaking two of his fingers. This is when the Cardinals came back from like 5 runs or something in the ESPN Sunday Night game, Renteria hit a walk-off jack to win it. Instead of hitting things, I just drank. Maaaan, did I read that wrong the first time.

I don't consider Dave Roberts a dependable source of OBP. He's never hit higher than .277, and doesn't do enough other things to be dangerous--even his base stealing ability fell off a clif last season. He's proven to be just as likely to hit .250/.330 as .275/.350. I didn't see how Loretta did last year, but holy crap. How does one's slugging fall 150 points in one year?

Are you applying this same critique when asked about Ronny Cedeno? It doesn't sound a whole lot different that his offensive scouting report. Cedeno is a much more well-rounded player, and doesn't play a premium offensive position. And he's shown much more power than Gathright has, which is testament to just how little power Joey has.

What two holes does it fill? It gives you a RF who is not outstanding in Mench, and gives you a different 2B. 2B is not a hole. In addition, neither is capable of leading off, while Walker is (even if he's not likely to be used in that role). Not to mention Walker and Williams are two of our biggest trading chips. Thats giving up an awful lot for not getting much in return (especially when you just know Soriano would be at the top of the lineup with his...speed). You just reminded me that they'd also be taking on considerable salary to make this lateral move. Wow, this looks worse and worse teh more I look at it.

What two holes does it fill? It gives you a RF who is not outstanding in Mench, and gives you a different 2B. 2B is not a hole. In addition, neither is capable of leading off, while Walker is (even if he's not likely to be used in that role).

Okay, how has nobody pointed out that it's only as low as 78% because of one particularly bad year, and that it hasn't dipped below 82% in any year for the past three?

Huff may not be a great fielder, but with that collection of outfielders, it's amusing the list of jokes they ran out at first and third, considering Huff plays both positions.

In a Bako-less world, I'd be very interested. Under current circumstances, only lukewarm.

No, but by only backing "your" players on this forum, you're definately inferring that anyone else is pointless, therefore we most surely "have to get" Player X. That's my entire point - you can't approve the best canidates only, you have to be selective. I'm not implying anything so important to start an argument about, I just think you're too picky man! I'd just like to remind you that in naming "his" players, he was simply answering the question you asked him. So, essentially, you're saying that by answering your question, he's saying anybody else is pointless. I also would like to point out how counterproductive the line "you can't approve the best candidates only, you have to be selective." So...we're *not* supposed to want the best options? Huh?

See, that's this organization's problem. We shouldn't be blaming Corey; we should be blaming the team that keeps putting 4 men on base and can't score them.

Edit: yay for board hangups!