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More support for the reason why W/L are a NEARLY worthless stat to judge pitchers upon. (Edit: Not directed at you Truffle, moreso at those who keep talking about Wood only winning 14 games in a season).

I think that's what it is if he comes in. He hasn't pitched in 6 or 7 days.

1000000:1 100000000000000000000:1 10:1 100:1

*gasp* I'd watch out for the Dubois Gestapo they are just about as relentless as the Corey gestapo. Someone didn't read the end of the Dubois/Patterson demotion thread. link? Edit: Found it. Still not sure exactly what you mean.

so fast it'd make heads spin.

Edited so I don't get time away. (Thanks C-Patt20).

Well I suppose I should have posted IF, but from Mark O'neals comments and Nomars comments I thought it was all but assumed he'd be back in very early august. I thought he was going to a AAA rehab in two weeks?

Just curious as to how you would do the lineup when Nomar comes back in early August. Hairston (CF) Walker (2B) Nomar (SS) Lee (1B) Ramirez (3B) Burnitz (RF) Barrett © Murton (LF) Pitcher (P) Do you think he could get back into that 3 hole, or would he start out down further at 6 or 7?

With the Lefty, Here's the lineup I'm guessing: Hairston ® Walker (L) Lee ® Ramirez ® Barrett ® Burnitz (L) Murton ® Perez ® (since cedeno will never play) Prior ®

And even when they will lose and he's down in AAA, it'll STILL be his fault! :wink: And despite anything he does, he will always have his Corey Defenders no matter what. :wink:

Any starting pitcher stats?

15-3 or 14-4 just isn't gonna happen. I'd say a 12-6 would be quite a good string of games to put us at 5 games over .500. Then we need to go on a tear.

What is your sig from? Or when is it from?

I think from Walkers comments, the Cubs were clearly frustrated with guys not getting on base ahead of Lee and Ramirez. His more recent comments suggest that's where they should stay the rest of the year (Hairston/Walker). I don't think they wanted Patterson gone, but with comments about Dusty's managerial decisions, I think the whole team realized as long as C-Patt was up, he was gonna be hurting this team in the 1 hole. Now that he is gone and people are getting on base, it's a new feeling for the cubs. Maybe it wears off a little to see all these walks and guys getting on base up and down the lineup. Maybe not. We'll see soon. If they keep it up, maybe not to the extent of the Marlins series (with 5 7 and 9 walks) but they walk and work the counts, then there might be some truth to a change once Corey left. I'm definitely NOT part of the Corey Defenders on this board, so keep that in mind as well.

Is that Shawn Estes vs. Kid K? I think I'm just about fed up with the Trade Kerry posts/threads/discussion.

This Derby is [expletive]. That is all.

And wrong. Prove it. I think it's pretty intuitive that using a team stat to rate a pitcher is pretty dumb. Especially when stats like WHIP, QS, ERA (though errors play into it, but not a huge part), .BAA are almost solely based upon the pitchers performance. Yes, the range of defense plays a small role in those numbers, but they are not affected by the team as much as wins are. Therefore by logical conclusion, wins are the LEAST useful stat in judging a pitchers effectiveness. That is, if you subscribe to logic and reasoning. It would be just as logical to evalute set up men NOT predominantly by their ERA's, but by inherited runners scored, WHIP, .BAA, but yet again, not wins/losses. Because that's how you judge how good they are. You don't use team stats.

Actually, you are making the assumption that I am not taking those things into consideration. What it does show is that Greg Maddux knows how to win, and more specifically, in the game he is pitching in. The same cannot be said about Kerry Wood, and while that argument is old and tired, it is still fact. Maybe Kerry should think about changing his name to Gregory Maddux, so the players will score more runs for him! (shrug??) While I will agree that Kerry always seems to get shortchanged in his starts he makes, the great pitchers adapt and still get the W's, regardless of runs scored for him. While Kerry has had his moments, he never really has broken thru on a consistent basis. This is directly connected to his durability, or lack there of, and the fact that he can't seem to keep his pitch count down enough, to be in the game to collect the W when the offense does score. BTW, and if you asked, I don't think Maddux is a better pitcher than Clemens, but I do know 2 winners when I see them, and they both are. BCB Actually it shows that the Braves knew how to win, that he got run support, and that he had a good bullpen. In this day and age (and the 90's) very few pitchers have more than 5 complete games in a season anymore. The Braves had great pitching, good offense, and a real good pen. That's why Glavine Smoltz and Maddux had so many wins. If you gave Wood that kinda run support and pen, he'd have 85-90 wins by now in his career.

Actually, it's my way of showing frustration for seeing the same point brought up that is incorrect. But whatever you say. Thanks for speaking for me. If a sigh is condescending, people need to get thicker skin.

I didn't want to get into this argument again. Suffice to say, that wins don't mean much when evaluating a pitcher. The argument that Wood has only won 14 games is tired and old and if you use that as an evaluation for Wood's talent or performance, you're simply being shortsighted. WHIP, .BAA, QS, ERA, BB:K ratio, k/9 are all more important numbers for a Starter than Wins (though the last 2 are not that much of a bigger deal) If wood didn't have the lowest Run Support of Cub pitchers from 2001-2003, he would have won many more than 14 games in a season. By your rationale, Maddux is better than Clemens this year because he has more wins. Wins matter for the HOF, Cy Young award, and maybe the All-star game. That's it. OF all the stats I listed, WHIP and .BAA are the most important tools in judging the effectiveness of a pitcher.

*Sigh*

I don't know that you need to be clairavoyant, seeing how nearly every news outlet has reported Pie would've been at Wrigley already but for his injury. Unless he is still hurting, he will certainly be a September call up. I guess I meant, I have a strong feeling he'll be up BEFORE the September call ups.

He will fade but a career .270 hitter will probably continue to hit .370 Trolling huh? You won't last long here.

:roll: Yea what's he talking about? Eckstein Rules Nomar. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I have a strong premonition he's coming up this year.