XZero771679666304

We'll see, according to some it is still early in the offseason. I'm pretty sure no one has said that in a few weeks.

This is the kind of football I want to see.

That's an understatement. And the revelation that he broke a record set by Tyrone Wheatley that was set 19 years ago made me feel old. I remember Wheatley like it was yesterday.

Look up about five posts.

The whole thing is a [expletive] abomination. I'm not even going to watch it.

I was thinking Jed & Theo asked for two of the three (which is what I would ask for) but all three? Wow. I'd tell Theo to go pound sand too, but also can't blame him for trying. If they can't get a major haul for Garza, might as well just keep him, maybe even extend him. Yeah, I would have balked at that asking price as well. I was hoping for Banuelos and Montero, all three isn't quite realistic. But if Garza isn't traded, I think an extension is a must, not a maybe.

I was thinking Jed & Theo asked for two of the three (which is what I would ask for) but all three? Wow.

I think that the Cards will be squarely in it. A top three of Wainwright, Carpenter and Garcia and a Beltran/Holliday/Berkman middle of the order will keep them in the race, I think. Of course a couple of perfectly plausible breaks go bad and they're a 75 win team. And I'm still not sold on their pen. And I agree about the Aramis signing, and I think Braun's test might have been the motivation to make the final push to sign him. But Ramirez isn't worry free, either.

Because people are going to bemoan and belittle every little move that isn't the one they want to see.

No Kidding Around may not be intentionally trolling, but he's clearly a Cards Talk level idiot. His being sincere isn't a possibility I had considered. If he is, then yes, you're right.

Yeah, what's he ever done there? He'll definitely enter the Hall wearing an Angels hat. The "Pujols won't be a STL icon/We'll never retire his number/he's dead to us" shtick is what butthurt Cards fans who had their ridiculous self-delusions of baseball romance shattered are saying. The same ones who are daft enough to believe that Stan Musial would never have left if he had been presented with the chance to be paid more by someone else. He is a St. Louis icon. Barring him winning 3-4 rings and breaking the HR record with the Angels, he will always be identified most with the Cardinals.

\ No one is questioning the Beltran signing. It was a really solid move. It's because people dared to insinuate that the the meat of the Cards order is on the older/fragile side and they aren't prepared to re-load it from within. That and they won't be able to absorb attrition as well with Pujols gone.

And it's seen as less significant on Cards boards than it is elsewhere. Somewhere in between what NSBBers think and what GRBers think lies the truth, I think. NKA is clearly trolling, btw.

What everyone was saying was "Well, they still have Albert."

It's all true. That's what they were saying about Edmonds, McGwire, Renteria and Walker.... Going to hell without 'em. They don't have a Pujols now making small amounts of money while being one of the best players ever, tell me you get why that is important to their success the past 10 years. I don't think a lot of Cardinals fans realize how spoiled they were during Albert's tenure there. No matter what changes went on around him, you had that beast as an anchor in the middle of the lineup being historically good for well below market value. It's easy to forget the Cards weren't exactly setting the world on fire before Pujols got there. They'll still be good, but without the greatest player of our generation to fall back on, there's a lot less margin for error.

Not all upcoming opportunities are apparent to us right now. Obviously Pujols and Prince were/are top tier assets at a position that needs to be filled. It's also true that there aren't a lot of FA options in coming years. That being said, you can't let those facts put you in a "must get" position. Albert went for too much and if someone gives Prince 9-10 years, you just have to let it go (if you're smart). The Cubs have money, but by no means does that mean they should adopt a "we'll get player X at any cost" mentality towards anyone. That's foolishness; you pay up until the point it stops making sense. You say you're discouraged the Cubs didn't make a "competitive offer" for Pujols. IMO, an offer in the 9-10 year 250/275 range would have been something more than competitive: it would have been stupid. And fortunately, not all potential solutions are ones that we here see. If Theo and Jed decide they want to load up on prospects and young player via trades and turn some of those into trades for ML players later, that's one avenue. Surely they have things in mind that we aren't thinking about. The Cubs can't field a team of buy-low veteran players for more than a year without impacting revenue, they surely know that. IMO, the frustration here is stemming from them not making moves (so far) that we wanted them to, but as much or more so from the lack of transparency regarding what's going on. And really, you can't make any valid judgement about what they're doing without looking at it in a larger context that we can't see yet. I was hoping for the team to be aggressive about 2012, but was prepared for the possibility that the year would be spent clearing the table. I can't believe it will take very long. With the money the Cubs have and if the Theo and Jed keep making moves and adding assets like they did this week they'll be in a position go out and acquire pieces we need later. And again, the offseason isn't over yet.

I wanted Pujols too, but not at 10 years. I think that giving him as much as he got is madness. I had been saying all year I wouldn't mind giving him 5-6 years with a higher AAV, but I couldn't go 9-10 years. IMO, there are a lot of people who are/were too enamored with what Albert has done and not realistic enough about what he will do. That and the idea of sticking it to the Cards. I literally have zero regret/angst about not signing him at the terms he got. Not one iota. Albert has been a player worthy (and more than worthy) of 27.5MM/per in the past, but he's not that player anymore, imo. A lot of people here fell in love with the idea of Pujols as a Cub, which is where a lot of the "where is the parallel fronts" angst is coming from. Theo said on day one he didn't want to pay for past production but future performance, which should have been an obvious indicator Pujols wasn't going to happen. And I think that 6-7 years from now (if not sooner) the decision not to make a stupid offer to Albert will look very wise. I may be wrong, but I don't think I am. Prince is another story. I don't see him getting a huge contract, and if he signs a reasonable one (5-7 years @22-25 with vesting options) that isn't with the Cubs, I'll be a little miffed. Or if the Cubs don't make a serious run at the Cubans. I'm just not seeing any players who have been signed that make me think "hey, that would have been a great investment for the present and future, and he was signed a reasonable (or even semi-reasonable) contract."

Dusty won't ruin him, he'll just use him as a LOOGY.

If you want to play around with the terminology, then the more appropriate way to say it would be that they are making no effort to contend this season. Which, to this point, they have made none. And it would take some really ill-advised contracts (Edwin Jackson at 4 years and/or more than $12 mil, Oswalt at three years, etc) for this team to have any realistic shot this year. If they were trying to build the present, they would be doing something to improve the current team and so far they've only made the current team worse. I'm sure they'll do a good job building for the future, but I'd really like to see them fulfill the "parallel fronts" comments they made earlier in the offseason. I don't think it's at all fair to say they've made no effort to improve the 2012 team. They haven't gone to the lengths other teams have to secure players like Pujols (which I am perfectly fine with) and Darvish (which I'm less okay with), but that doesn't constitute no effort. We've been over this before, but most of the signings we've seen have been ones I would not have wanted the Cubs to make (in terms of the financials). And we weren't going to see Theo and Jed throwing packages of prospects out there to improve the 2012 team given the drive to improve the system from the bottom up. The bottom line here is that if pieces can be added that improve the team going forward and don't compromise the future to an unreasonable degree, they'll likely be added. But other than Darvish and Wilson (who I know you wanted but we really weren't going to get, imo) I haven't seen any go off the board for a price I would have been willing to pay. And let's not forget there's still a few out there yet and the offseason is not nearly over (I'm still far from convinced we're not in on Fielder). I'm pretty disappointed that it looks like 2012 is going to be rough, but I'm really not angry because I see the logic in what they are doing and what they haven't done. And I don't really feel like they've done anything that egregiously runs counter to what they said they'd do. And given the resources the Cubs have, I don't think a rebuild would/will take that long. If Theo and Jed can get more returns like we saw in the Marshall trade (or a big one for Garza) and clear the board of big money pieces like Soriano this offseason, that gives them a lot of ammo to use next offseason. I can see the Cubs being contenders in 2013.

He was #62 last year. what can i say, i'm not really wowed by a sub 800 ops in a hitter's league. Not enough power for a corner guy, imo. Vitters is guy whose power we've been waiting on and he slugged better in a pitcher's league.

Yeah, that doesn't sound right at all.

They have a top 10 farm system and no contracts that look to be albatrosses. 55 mil in guaranteed money in 2013, 25 in 2014 and 26 in 2015. A good system and a lot of money is pretty much exactly how you'd want to be set up for the long term, isn't it? Who has the Cardinals system ranked in the top 10? Serious question, because BA had you guys ranked 24th last year.

Why is that? Because he has missed 20 games or more two of the last four seasons?

So, 2 of the 3 best position players will make or break them. Whoah. Don't go too far out on that limb. And Holliday has been worth 5+ WAR for 5 straight years. There's pretty much no uncertainty with him. Of course you can say that two of the best position players will make or break any team. But those two in your case have had extreme variances in performance and health in recent years, so that either/or dynamic is more pronounced.

Nah, not really. Some, not much. Like 130 or 160 games kind of uncertainty.