UMFan83

Pros: -Good defense (I think thats still the case) -Decent BA and OBP last year -Probably an upgrade over Theriot Cons: -Made 8.5 million last year -32 years old -Is a FA after the year -Mediocre to poor power numbers -Only one season with an over 100 OPS+ (2003) Overall, I don't think he's worth what we'd give up for a marginal player who I'd have no interest in resigning after this season.

Jim Hendry will tell you it makes our team a lot better, because it gives us depth with DeRosa able to play 2B, RF, maybe SS, 1B, 3B with a decent OPS when others need a day off.

So Meph calls a poster's opinion "[expletive]," someone asks if he's elaborated, I give Meph's "I could but I don't want to" beaut and I'm warned for personal attacks? For quoting a facetious smart alec poster and giving my facetious opinion of the mindset? OK. It was my (correct) opinion that his (inaccurate) comparison was [expletive]. Who cares? It wasn't even you so let's not get our panties in a bunch over semantics. Actually if you were referring to my quote, you completely miss interpreted what I said. My comment was very accurate.

Year Ag Tm Lg W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP IBB BK ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP +--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+ 2003 22 CHC NL 18 6 30 30 3 1 0 0 211.3 183 67 57 15 50 245 9 9 863 4 0 2.43 4.33 178 1.103 MVP-9,CYA-3,AS 2003 was loooong ago. Let's face it, he is coming off a serious shoulder surgery, who is to say he will even be close to what he was in 2003? I'm just saying. Potential is why we care so much about him

Year Ag Tm Lg W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP IBB BK ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP +--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+ 2003 22 CHC NL 18 6 30 30 3 1 0 0 211.3 183 67 57 15 50 245 9 9 863 4 0 2.43 4.33 178 1.103 MVP-9,CYA-3,AS

Why couldn't Hendry gotten a PTBNL from the Yankees for Prior so that they could at least control where we was going

My best arguement is that Soriano played his best when Pie was on the 25 man. Now spill the beans.

Woah woah woah. I didn't say that people weren't justified for their attitudes towards top prospects. I was in that boat too. I'm just saying its funny to look back at players who we were all going crazy about who didn't pan out. You don't think its funny to look back at 2003 and see the types of trades people were turning down because they involved Bobby Hill? I feel like I'm fighting both sides of this argument now.

A) One Zambrano for every five Dubois is probably an excellenct ratio. B) You could not have possibly seen people say we can't possibly trading Dubois. It just never happened. The revisionist history of Dubois has gotten out of control. Dubois was never a big time prospect that everybody loved. Dubois was a guy some people thought could be halfway decent if they had 2 other solid outfielders to play alongside him. He was never an untouchable or anything close. He was never a darling. He was simply a guy people were willing to live so that the team could spend money on actual players. I was actually one of his bigger supporters on the board, but I never envisioned an OF of Dubois, Hollandsworth, Burnitz and Patterson. Dubois was just a body to fill a spot. Had they gone after a real corner OF, perhaps they could have lived with Dubois numbers. As it turns out, he never even came close to fulfilling the rather small expectations people actually had for him. Fine, I will give you DuBois, but there have been at least a dozen names people always wanted to keep that never panned out anyway. The odds of success are much more in your favor if you are the team dumping prospects for proven talent. Proven talent can always be turned into compensatory picks later to refill the farm system. Well I agree with you there. If we still had the archives from 2003 you would spend hours laughing at people's thoughts of Choi, Bobby Hill, Patterson, etc. I can't remember for sure, but I think at least 35-40% of the posters on this board were completely against the DLee - Choi trade immediately after it occured. When Choi started out hot in 2004 and DLee not, people had their signatures filled with Choi statistical updates compared to Lee. There has to be a fine line though between trading prospects and keeping them to actually use. Take the Red Sox for example. They spend spend spend. They buy a Matt Clement for way over market value and then don't even flinch when he pitches 20 games for them over 3 years. For every JD Drew they sign, they bring up a Kevin Youkilis. Look at their roster: Pedroia - Homegrown Youkilis - Homegrown Papelbon - Homegrown Ellsbury - Homegrown Bucholtz - Homegrown Lester - Homegrown 3 people in their everyday lineup plus 2-3 of their starters are homegrown. That's pretty good for a big market team. However at the same time, they have also traded top prospects like Freddie Sanchez and Hanley Ramirez to make additional improvements. And its not just the Red Sox that are doing this. For every Bobby Abreu they trade for, they bring up a Robinson Cano/Melky Cabrera/Phil Hughes to mix in.

They can have Felix Patterson as far as I'm concerned. He needs to be traded before teams start figuring out that he's lost against major league pitching. He's supposed to be this burner on the paths and he steals bases at like a 55% clip. I don't think he's got much of a baseball IQ and I'm not keeping him around solely for defensive purposes. Felix Pie first 177 AB: .215/.270/.333 Alex Rodriguez first 184 AB: .223/.270/.348 Boy, I bet the Mariners are glad that they didn't give up and trade him away after the first 184 AB. what a [expletive] comparison let's see.....Pie was a decent prospect who was 22. Rodriguez was the best prospect in the game, probably the best prospect in the history of the game -- even better than Griffey Jr, and was 18. you cant compare them dont pretend you can jesus Somehow I think my point went way over your head. I'm simply saying that over 180 ABs, there is absolutely no way you can say Felix Pie is a bust. I then found an example of a player who had similar numbers and obviously changed that around quickly. Felix obviously does not have the credentials that ARod did, nor am I even coming close to making that point. But Felix is not Ronny Cedeno or some other lightly regarded prospect either. He has consistantly been among the top prospects in baseball according to Baseball America. That alone should state that you shouldn't use his first 177 freaking ABs to determine how he is going to do the rest of his baseball career. Get it now?? Oh and I'm not Jesus but I appreciate the comparison.

They can have Felix Patterson as far as I'm concerned. He needs to be traded before teams start figuring out that he's lost against major league pitching. He's supposed to be this burner on the paths and he steals bases at like a 55% clip. I don't think he's got much of a baseball IQ and I'm not keeping him around solely for defensive purposes. Felix Pie first 177 AB: .215/.270/.333 Alex Rodriguez first 184 AB: .223/.270/.348 Boy, I bet the Mariners are glad that they didn't give up and trade him away after the first 184 AB. But did the Mariners have a hispanic(sort of) SS prospect fail to meet expectations in the years prior??? HUH?? It's a great idea to temper enthusiasm on prospects, but so many people take this to the extreme. Every guy who puts up good numbers in the minors gets "Dubois LOL!!" Every guy who's fast with some power gets "Corey with a K!!! LOL!!!!" Every SP prospect who doesn't dazzle from day one gets "The great Juan Cruz HAHAHA" Every top prospect gets "HEE STRIKE OUT!!!!" Well thats half of the crowd. The other half is saying Pie and Colvin for Santana? NO WAY!!! Why give up Kenny Lofton and Tony Gwynn for a 29 year old pitcher?

They can have Felix Patterson as far as I'm concerned. He needs to be traded before teams start figuring out that he's lost against major league pitching. He's supposed to be this burner on the paths and he steals bases at like a 55% clip. I don't think he's got much of a baseball IQ and I'm not keeping him around solely for defensive purposes. Felix Pie first 177 AB: .215/.270/.333 Alex Rodriguez first 184 AB: .223/.270/.348 Boy, I bet the Mariners are glad that they didn't give up and trade him away after the first 184 AB.

Pie, Gallagher, Colvin, Mateo, Cedeno for Bedard and Roberts. Only acceptable if DeRosa can play SS

From June 3rd - June 23 he got at least 3 PA in every game, most of them starting and hitting 2nd, a span of just about 3 weeks. The job was essentially his if he played up to potential. But overall, I agree with you, I expect him to improve over last year and needs to be given the opportunity.

Man it must be in the dead of the offseason because every thread in transactions lingers for weeks and the discussion is rarely on topic

Honestly, I highly doubt these moves would happen but if all of them did, I'd be sold on this team. -One more moderate power bat. After the big 3 (Lee, Ramirez, Soriano), there is a drop off to Fukudome, and then a larger drop off to DeRosa, Soto, Pie, Theriot. Of course no one really knows what sort of power Soto or Pie would have over a full season, but I wouldn't expect either of them to be 20 HR hitters next year. I would hate to see us go on another 9 game HR drought like we went on last year. -One more starter. I feel like our starters overachieved last year. Lilly had the best year in his career, Hill had a pretty good year and Marquis had a great first half. I think expecting that same starting 4 (while adding Dempster and his 4.31 career ERA) would not be enough. If we make a trade for another bat (Roberts) our staff will look pretty thin and will not be able to withstand injuries like we suffered in 2006. -Another SS. If we had a lineup like the Yankees, we could easily afford to take a hit on a weak hitting defensive MI, but we simply cannot with our offense and in an NL lineup. I don't Theriot is the answer, and you can't expect Cedeno to make that impact either. This I could hold off on the longest, perhaps waiting to see how things go until July 31 to make a move.

So your point brings up another point. If this is possible, how many Dominicans do you think may have done the same as Sammy (if true). Players like Ortiz and Manny could easily have done the same thing and gotten away with it.

Nobody. except Edmonds

Johnny Damon :-" :lol:

It's more that these guys are pro athletes and likely not master, or even capable, criminals, and based on what this report is showing as to how a lot of these guys got their supplies, it surprises me that any of them would be able to do it seemingly as airtight as Sammy has done, if he was using. If he was, wouldn't he need to keep using whatever throughout the season at various points? I guess maybe he could just stock up in the DR if that was doable and then have enough for the season. It's more common in the other thread than this one. People there are continually "surprised Sammy was smart enough" for a variety of things. I'm guessing it's because he's an ELL. A lot of people assume "stupid" when they hear an accent and broken English, which has never made sense to me. Especially when it's likely Sammy has a better mastery of two languages than the majority of people on this board. completely, completely, completely agree. people hear that accent and think he must not be very smart. I guess that must be where it comes from. Hard to argue the man has built himself into a multi-millionaire from scratch. Not that it takes a genius to do that, but I think it's pretty clear he knows what he's doing. Hey -- he's smarter than some of these other guys who wrote checks in their own names, that's for sure. I don't think it's necessarily the accent. You can point to actions like the corking and leaving the final game of 2004 early as being very, VERY poor decisions and, arguably, very dumb decisions. That and the fact that Sammy actually speaks English rather well. He only chooses to go into the whole broken English thing when he is being confronted about things when broken English is a convenient diversion

Race isn't a large factor at all. Bonds is ripped apart because he was the first really big name implicated to use steroids and he broke not one but two of baseballs most glamorized and hallowed records. Tell me why Gary Sheffield wasn't ripped very hard when he was caught up in this mess? I think Jason Giambi was hit harder than Sheff.

its old, but no one called you out on it. You basically took a guy who is in the 90th percentile among guys at their position for OBP, and compared it to a guy who is in the 30th percentile in OBP at the position (give or take). 70 points of OBP is enormous. The difference between Fukudome's and Jones' OBP is about the difference between Jones' OBP and Wyatt Toregas. Yes, Wyatt Toregas Yeah seriously, not to be the OBP police, but we have a lot of hitters on this team that are capable of hitting for power. What we lack are hitters who can get on base consistantly to make those HR hitters matter. Thats been our key problem the last few years, and its finally being addressed. A 70 point boost in OBP is tremendous. A 70 point boost in OPS is tremendous too. Not to mention hes quick, plays great D and has a great arm (think of how many extra bases won't be taken on his arm). This is why we are much higher on Fuk than we were with Jones.

I don't know about that. These people are going from bulked up athlete to extremely bulked up athlete with dramatic changes, not from "casual soccer player" to bulked up person. http://www.j-fam.org/rjjracin/PC1/Sosa_Donruss_RC.JPG Look at Sosa's muscles here, he looks like he already has solid defined muscles. The type of muscles that have been bulked up from at least a year or two of solid weight training. Since about 1995-1996, his body frame exploded. Its not like he went from couch potato to working out 5 days a week around that timeframe. He went from conditioned muscular athlete to humongous bulked up beast. Just my opinion. Anyone who entertains the idea that Sosa didn't use steroids is fooling themselves. The only muscles you can see in that picture are his forearms and his face. How can you determine anything from that? Fine http://njsportspromotions.com/SosaToppsrookie.jpg By no means is he jacked, but he's obviously been in the weight room for an extended amount of time.

I don't know about that. These people are going from bulked up athlete to extremely bulked up athlete with dramatic changes, not from "casual soccer player" to bulked up person. http://www.j-fam.org/rjjracin/PC1/Sosa_Donruss_RC.JPG Look at Sosa's muscles here, he looks like he already has solid defined muscles. The type of muscles that have been bulked up from at least a year or two of solid weight training. Since about 1995-1996, his body frame exploded. Its not like he went from couch potato to working out 5 days a week around that timeframe. He went from conditioned muscular athlete to humongous bulked up beast. Just my opinion. Anyone who entertains the idea that Sosa didn't use steroids is fooling themselves. Just because some guy went around and talked to BALCO, a Mets clubhouse attendant and a handful of players and didn't name Sosa doesn't mean he is any less likely to have done steroids. In fact, a member of the team Sosa played on during the PEAK of his alleged steroid years mentioned witnessing multiple teammates inject steroids. Why didn't he name the players? Maybe he was trying to protect the integrity of a big named player who set numerous records the year before? Just speculation.

Yeah but the common demoninator with all of those names except two is that they played with Dusty on the Giants in the Bay Area, where BALCO and a large chunk of the investigation was conducted.