Little Slide Rooter

Big difference between Choo and Sizemore Yes, but if healthy, they're still both upgrades over Marlon Byrd. I know he's cheap and productive, but assuming we do keep our corner infielders, we'll need an offensive upgrade somewhere, and the outfields really the only place, considering that I don't see many 2B upgrades out there, and I'd just as soon cycle through our internal options.

Picked this up on MLBTR. Probably just talk, but still.

So say we did resign Ramirez and Pena, and then CJ Wilson and kept Z. Maybe find some kind of upgrade over Byrd or Barney through trade, say Grady Sizemore or Shin Soo Choo. Would the rotation of Wilson, Garza, Dempster, Z, and Cashner be enough to make up for what would be a slight upgrade over this years offense? Maybe we do move Z and see what it would take to get someone like Brandon Morrow or another one of the Rays starters, who they will be reportedly be listening to offers for this winter. Perhaps even take out a flier on someone like Scott Kazmir or Ben Sheets and hope for the best? Say it looked like Jackson Castro Ramirez Pena Choo/Sizemore Soriano Soto Barney/Flaherty/LeMahieu/Baker/DeWitt P

I heard that Aramis was injured during last nights game. What was the injury? Anything serious?

What Ramirez do we get next year? Do we get this year's Aramis who was mostly healthy and generally very productive, or do we get last year's Aramis who was bad for quite some time, hurt a lot, and only came on strong in the second half of the year? You're talking like Aramis is some sure thing to be healthy and productive next year when that's not the case at all. He'll turn 34 during the season and just last year he was worth .3 WAR. He posted a .745 OPS last year. Yes he was hurt, but that wasn't that much of an anomaly. With the Fielder/Wilson combo (should we get both), you have elite production and the certainty that comes with younger players. Best case scenario you get an .833 OPS from Pena and an .871 OPS from Aramis. But how likely is that scenario? In the Fielder/Wilson scenario (if we get both, obviously), you have a much greater likelihood of getting the .871-.958 OPS Prince has posted each of the past three years and the 2.97-3.35 ERA and 1.17-1.25 WHIP Wilson has posted his 2 full years starting. Plus, both of those players likely remain highly productive for at least 2-3 more years (less certainty with Wilson), whereas Aramis and Pena are likely declining by 2013, if not next year. People just need to understand that Fielder and Wilson would be cornerstones, not the tickets to the World Series. As more money comes off the books, more holes can be filled, and all the while, hopefully filling other holes through the farm system, and others through trade. We should have a top team by 2014, possibly 2013. And to those who say "well why wouldn't Fielder just sign with a ready made winner if the moneys similar", to that I say there are guys who might prefer to be the cornerstone than just another piece. Hopefully Fielder is one of those guys.

Nobody is. I, and others, are arguing that the Cubs should pursue both of them and since the Cubs have as much or more money to spend than any other team, they have a chance to land both. It's a risk, but standing pat with the current team (or something close to it) isn't going make us any better next year or going forward. Attempting to go after Fielder/Pujols while keeping Aramis is not standing pat. The risk/reward favors it, IMO. If they whiff after letting Aramis walk they will almost surely be worse. If we didn't get Fielder(or Pujols) and a top starting pitcher, even if we did re sign Ramirez, I don't think the team would be very good anyway. The team would have the same question marks it did coming into the this season, the difference being that the question marks would be a year older.

I've mentioned that a couple of times. Nobodies assuming anything. It's discussion. Until the new GMs in place, nothing can be assumed.

It really isn't that smart to bench Soriano and Byrd too often either. Those are guys that the Cubs are counting on next year as well and getting them upset isn't the right way to do that. Soriano has had 4 days off already in Septmber and Byrd has had 3. That's a lot for them. Colvin's in a tough spot. His at-bats against right-handers have been taken by LaHair, and it doesn't do him much good to play mostly against left-handers. Add to that he hasn't really proven that he deserves more at-bats (he had time in AAA to prove that and failed) and it's just been hard to get him in there. Do you really think veterans like Byrd and Soriano really care this late into the season if they are playing or not? Of course not, they just want to roll around in a big pool of money and pleasure themselves to a massive portrait of Jim Hendry.

They won't be better. Every theory is based on longshot hopes of unrealistic production from garbage internal candidates. It's a pointless exercise. It's impossible for the Cubs to better use Ramirez's money than on his salary? Don't be ridiculous. The Cubs were bad in several areas. If they use Ramirez's money towards a 4-5 win pitcher like Wilson, then you don't need any production out of 3B(which doesn't HAVE to be a platoon of current guys) to break even, and you've made yourself better for future years as well. The Cubs will need production from somewhere. Also, you do know that winshare numbers aren't real? They're like a Z score. The only way to be better without Ramirez will be to add enough offense to offset his production +. If they get Fielder and let him walk they will be a weaker offensive team by a larger margin. So, Wilson will need to be an elite pitcher to factor for the loss of Aramis. I guess the question is: Is Wilson + Fielder enough to make up for the loss in production of Aramis. I don't know, but I suspect the answer is no given the other problems the Cubs have. But they also need to think beyond 2012. Fielder and Wilson would be sufficent enough change for 2012, even if it doesn't make us immediately better. It will be a process. If none of our internal 3B options pan out, find a 3B in 2013. It's not like there are any 3B options avaialble this offseason that we'd ever look back and think damn, we should have got him. If Aramis wants to give us a hometown discount, something along the lines of 3/35, go for it, but he has too many suiter to do that, and due to the thin market, somebody will overpay for him. He could end up with something like a 3/45 year deal, and I'd just as soon let somebody else give it to him.

They better show that no good GM of their the door ASAP, or at least allow him to explore other opportunities.

I think meal money is around $110/day. That's a lot of taco bell. 60K/month is huge for anybody. Why couldn't I have been born with marginal big league baseball talent? That can't be right though, as I believe league min is 400someK. And who the [expletive] needs $110/day for meal money? I get a bit confused about minor league salaries. Aside from the bonus babies and guys on big league contracts like Szczur, how much do they make? I remember hearing that most minor leaguers get something like 20K/year+meal money, unless they're on the big league 40 man, in which case they get closer to 50K/year.

This is such a ridiculous comment to make. The goal is not to break even on cost/value for every player. The goal is to be good. Ramirez is good, so he is paid a lot of money. If all you do is let every expensive guy walk and replace him with cheap guys who might break even on their production, you are going to suck. The Cubs already suck. They can't afford to let quality leave if they want to get any better. Their system isn't close to being capable of replacing somebody like Ramirez. The Cubs have needs beyond 3B and finite resources. If they are better next year with Ramirez's money spent elsewhere, they need to do it. Especially since Ramirez isn't a long term piece at this point. The fact is, it will be a rebuilding process. Not a fire sale, but a rebuild that can get us back to the top in 2-3 years. Fielder, Wilson, Castro, Soto, Cashner Garza, and Jackson would be a great foundation. Hopefully, some of our other prospects can realy pan out for us as well, and between 2012-2014, we'll be freeing up some big money between Fukudome, Bradley/Silva, Pena, and Grabow after this year, maybe Ramirez after this year, Zambrano, Byrd, and probably Dempster after 2012, although Z would still have a 8 mil buyout, and Finally Soriano after 2014.

But if Aramis leaves, what are the options? I agree, if Vitters gets any time in 2012 it will be in the 2nd half after dominating AA/AAA. Other options are: Platoons involving Jeff Baker/DJ LeMahieu and Ryan Flaherty/Blake DeWitt The FA market, in which Wilson Betemit, Casey Blake (38) and Mark DeRosa (37) are the 3B highlights beyond Ramirez. Trade: Mark Reynolds could be an option. Not many others I can think of. Theres Brandon Inge and Kevin Kouzmanoff who have spent the past several years proving that they arent very good at baseball.

If ever there were a time to experiment with guys like Flaherty, LeMahieu, or even Vitters, 2012 would be the time. Even if we were to sign Fielder and Wilson, and leave the rest of the team as is, we'd be able to compete, in the .500 with a fighting chance in a weak division sense of the word, that's about the best we could expect from next years team. If Ramirez were to move on, this would be the time to try out these guys, rather than a bargain basement FA like Betmit or Blake, or even banking on Jeff Baker to be something other than Jeff Baker. The Cubs will not be rebuilding, so Flaherty/LeMahieu/Vitters isn't going to work at 3B. Losing Ramirez/Pena and adding Fielder/Baker (or Baker platoon) does nothing for the offense especially with Soriano and Byrd a year older. Also, everyone seems to think that it's a sure thing we will get Wilson this offseason and I'm not sure that will be the case. All those other teams with money to spend see the same positive attributes in Wilson that we see and some of them may not be talking $20-$25 million per year for a 1B and more than $12 million to dump a disgruntled pitcher (or take back a similar bad contract). Please find one post in which someone says anything about Wilson being a sure thing?

If ever there were a time to experiment with guys like Flaherty, LeMahieu, or even Vitters, 2012 would be the time. Even if we were to sign Fielder and Wilson, and leave the rest of the team as is, we'd be able to compete, in the .500 with a fighting chance in a weak division sense of the word, that's about the best we could expect from next years team. If Ramirez were to move on, this would be the time to try out these guys, rather than a bargain basement FA like Betmit or Blake, or even banking on Jeff Baker to be something other than Jeff Baker.

wrigley is an old ballpark with small seats, how do brewer fans fit in them? They're also rather expensive, so how to Brewer fans afford them? The only time I've ever been to a Cubs game in which the away teams fans took over Wrigley were the Twins in 2009. Those were some obnoxious bastards. Of course, I've never been to a game at Wrigley vs. the Yanks or Red Sox, and I'm assuming they'd be worse.

The decision would ultimately be made by the new GM, but surely that'll be the case. Unless the new GM is named Jim Hendry, that will be the case.

With Not So Mighty Casey on the mound, we'll be needing about 5-6 more of those. I'd really prefer the Brewers not clinch at Wrigley.

Surrreeeee you are Jeffy. Havnt seen this posted. You never know, this could be their scheduled year to build a champion to then burn it down before the rings are even engraved.

Havnt seen this posted.

Eh, another Castro walk is more important than a W.

The point I've been making this entire thread is that we should let Aramis walk to (hopefully) free up the money to sign Wilson and one of Pujols/Fielder. Wilson is a better short and long term investment than Aramis at this point. I think that we could move Byrd for his entire salary and hopefully get 5 mil for Z. That would free up something like 11 mil. Maybe even try to get 10-15 mil for Soriano, off of the rest of his contract of course, not per year. Yeah, that would give us a pretty crappy outfield next year, probably consisting of Jackson, one of Colvin or LaHair who could maybe platoon with Reed Johnson if he'd come back cheap enough and some cheap FA or trade. Im OK with that next year because even if we did get Wilson and Fielder, we'd still be building more for 2013 than '12, and hopefully go for Kemp or Ethier the next year.

Yeah, 2 of the 3 guys had a lousy 5 game series. Send them back to Boise next season.

The thinking for me behind going after a top of the rotation guy is that our system is full of 3-5 type starters who should be ready within the next couple or three years. Much like the reasoning for going after a premiere bat, a top of the rotation pitcher is something the system simply won't produce for the next few years (maybe Ben Wells is our next best shot). It almost seems like a waste of money/prospects to pursue a non-TOR guy since we've got so many of them nearly ready in the minors. If we're going to spend big money, it should be on something we won't have anytime soon - a legit TOR guy. And the benefit to Wilson specifically is that going by the mileage on his arm, it's like signing a guy in his mid-20s. He's only been starting for 2 seasons now. The real question is what we can afford. Ramirez plus Pujols/Fielder probably puts us out of the Wilson bidding. Re- signing Pena and Ramirez should leave lots of money for Wilson. Assuming that Z is dumped, and the rest of our offseason is retaining Pena, Ramirez, and signing Wilson, how much better is our team than the one we have now? Somewhat, but not enough to make a big difference. Wilson, Garza, Demp, Cash, and Wells is a solid enough rotation, but Even assuming that Castro, Aramis and Pena put up what they are this year, We'd still be counting on Soriano, Byrd, Soto, and Barney, as well as Brett Jackson.

Rosenthal thinks the Reds will at least be open to offers. I'm having a really hard time envisioning what kind of package could net him. The only guy in our entire organization that could get The Reds attention would be our starting shortstop.