Backtobanks

The reason for that is that usually the trade has prospects going to a team that needs prospects, so it doesn't really look like we're giving up anything significant. To a team going nowhere like the Orioles, getting possible 5-tool players like Pie and Jones, possibly a future All Star in Triunfel, a lefty RP and starter could make them serious contenders in 2 years. Would that be true if they kept Bedard, Roberts, and Payton? To be honest, I'm one of the posters who thinks the rumored Roberts deal is giving up too much for a marginal upgrade at 2B.

Mariners get: Bedard (Orioles), Murton (Cubs) Royals get: Clement (Mariners), Patterson (Cubs) Orioles get: Jones, Sherrill, Triunfel (Mariners), Pie, Marshall (Cubs) Cubs get: Dejesus (Royals), Roberts, Payton (Orioles) Mariners get #1 starter and replacement for Jones. Royals get needed young C and young 2B/utility OF for expendable CF. Orioles get CF, LF, #4 or #5 starter, lefty RP, and future SS. Cubs get CF, leadoff man 2B, and reserve OF. Won't happen, but it's fun to try (got to do something while we wait). Can you imagine trying to get 4 GMs together on a deal, especially when two of them are JH and AM. Cubs could still use DeRosa, Dempster, plus ??? for Burnett. Roberts DeJesus DLee ARam Fukudome Soriano Soto Theriot

I'm not saying I'm right, but when I think about the subject of player upgrades, I think about it in terms of performance by position on the field, not batting order. I like Brian Roberts. And if you told me that acquiring him would mean that Mark DeRosa was shifting to SS, I'd be all over the deal. But everything we have heard to date suggests that the only thing a Roberts acquisition does is make DeRosa a "super-sub." That means Ryan Theriot is still starting at SS, and I (like many others here) have a huge problem with that coupled with Felix Pie starting in CF. Their OBPs suggest we will have near 3 automatic outs everytime through the line-up. That's unacceptable for a team spending $125M. Roberts may be better that DeRosa, but the difference is slight in my opinion. The real opportunity is to upgrade at SS and/or CF. The trade focus should be on those positions and a #2 starter. Finally, someone that totally agrees with me. Using Cedeno, Marshall, Gallagher, Murton, Dempster, Marquis, Patterson, plus whatever other youngsters should have been enough to get a decent SS/CF and starting pitcher instead of a marginal upgrade at 2B.

In regards to acquiring a SS, maybe the Indians trade for Roberts, and then trade either Peralta or Cabrera to the Cubs? What do you think the Indians would need to trade Peralta? From Ken Rosenthal: "The Cubs remain the most likely fit for Roberts. The Mets made a strong run at Bedard at the general managers' meetings in November. The Indians, who have explored trades for impact players all off-season, like both Roberts and Bedard." I'm so tired of waiting for the Roberts deal that I would almost welcome your thought above. I've tried to make the case that I think the resources being used to obtain Roberts could be used to upgrade SS. I still think the upgrade from DeRosa to Roberts is minimal.

This isn't true, but w/e. Keep being ignorant and oblivious to the truth if you want. Now you see why I keep bringing up Greene. The only real SSs that I see that are upgrades and might be available are Greene, Peralta, and Furcal.

I'm still hard at work trying to get us a SS. The Pirates are trying to restock their minor league system and are upset that Xavier Nady doesn't seem to have the trade value that they had hoped. How about we help them out with with this 3-way deal: Padres get: Xavier Nady, Jack Wilson (from Pirates) Fuld/Patterson (from Cubs) Cubs get: Greene, Hairston (from Padres) Pirates get: Theriot, Fontenot, Fuld/Patterson, Veal (from Cubs) I tried not to use any of the players mentioned in the Roberts trade (Gallagher, Marshall, Cedeno). Roberts Fukudome DLee ARam Soriano Soto Greene Pie =D>

Don't kid yourself about "3 B prospects". They were 3 of the top 8 in the Sox farm system. Being 3 of of the best in a bad bunch doesn't make them blue chippers. And a .251 hitter isn't ARod either. Swisher is a good acquisition by the White Sox with very good power numbers for a CF. If he moves to LF, RF, or 1B, his numbers are okay but not great. As you (and others) have pointed out, he is under team control at a fair price for several years which makes this a good deal.

As far as I can tell, the bottom line is that most of us would like Roberts as our 2B because he would be an upgrade (marginal, modest, or significant) over DeRosa. The problem gets to be what package should you send to the Orioles to justify this marginal, modest, or significant upgrade.

DeRosa has been very consistent statistically the last two years as a starter which is why many of us think he can repeat his numbers from 2006-2007 ( .295, .374, .438, .802). Of course his numbers fall when you count the years he was a utility IF and not getting regular playing time. Also, I wish all of you posters out there who hint that DeRosa will get significant playing time at SS would realize that the Cubs have no plans for him at SS. They have stated that Theriot is the starter and they're looking for a sub SS who can bat left-handed (Cintron?). As for DeRosa strengthening the bench, we can find a right-handed pinch hitter for a lot less than Marshall, Gallagher, and Cedeno.

I still think the phrase "marginal upgrade" is pretty accurate. Looking at the stats, the only clear cut advantages that Roberts has is more speed and switch hitting. If you look at the last two years for DeRosa (when he was a starter), his stats are much better than Roberts' career averages (except for stolen bases). Roberts career avg: 10 hr, 61 rbi, .281, .351, .409, .760 DeRosa (as a starter): 12 hr, 73 rbi, .295, .374, .438, .802 I'd rather have Roberts but again the stats aren't overwhelming, so we shouldn't give up 4 players for him.

Don't kid yourself about "3 B prospects". They were 3 of the top 8 in the Sox farm system.

"To me, Roberts over DeRosa in itself is more than a marginal upgrade. Couple it with the fact that you either have DeRosa taking the bench ABs away from the likes of Fontenot and others or you're flipping DeRosa for another SP (i.e. Burnett), and it's a clear cut upgrade." I agree that if you are going to flip DeRosa for someone like Burnett, then I don't have a problem with the Roberts deal. The problem is that the latest rumors have a lot of our trade bait, that might be packaged with DeRosa, going for the upgrade (marginal or not) at 2B.

These latest rumors being kicked around (Gallagher, Cedeno, Marshall, and Fuld for Roberts or add Murton and receive Payton) are getting ridiculous. (Warning - If the Cubs get Payton, there goes Pie's playing time.) I would love to get Roberts, but the upgrade from DeRosa would be minimal. I still insist that trading that many players could get us Greene, Peralta, Furcal, or a good starting pitcher, which would help more than Roberts. If some of these rumors are true, Hendry must be preparing for a job in Baltimore with his former boss.

Today's Tribune is shooting down this rumor. For a minute there I thought Kenny Williams was having a moment of clarity about the Sox contending in 2008. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Everybody always mentions that Murton would be Beane's kind of player. I wonder about Murton being included in a package for Blanton.

I wonder if this deal would be expanded somehow to include Crede and Gary Mathews Jr. The Sox could move Swisher to 1B and Mathews takes over in CF with younger players (Kendrick, Santana ?) coming to the Sox. A deal like this could be beneficial to both teams by clearing some surplus players and adding some youth for the Sox.

Those aren't the packages offered for Bedard, but some of the names mentioned in different packages offered for Bedard. As for Bedard being better than Buerhle, the statistics are reasonably close, but the most telling statistic is innings pitched. Buerhle averages 70 more innings pitched per season. Since both pitchers are the aces of their teams, having your best pitcher on the mound for an extra 70 innings a season is significant. In other words, Buerhle pitches 43% more innings per season. General managers give a ton more weight to the last season or two when looking at trades than they do career marks. In those two years, Buerhle has only pitched 26 more innings combined than Bedard has. Their statistics are not similar at all if you look at the last year, or the last two years combined (any more than that and Bedard was still trying to break into the league). Plus, Bedard is coming off his career year right now. His value might not be that much higher than Beurhle's on a normal basis, but it's artificially higher right now coming off his career year. Finally, the huge strikeout total this year for Bedard adds value as GM's love high K totals. Some team will overpay for Bedard this offseason coming off of his career year. His value should be higher than Buerhle's (Buerhle's inconsistency costs him, and Bedard should slide from his career year but not put up any years even close to Buerhle's 2006), but right now it's much, much higher. I guess we'll never know since Williams gave Buerhle a NTC, but I still think if Buerhle's name was out there, you would see the phone lines light up with offers. When you see the offers that many GMs make for a mediocre "innings eater", I can only imagine what the offers would be for a #1 starter that averages 230 innings per year.

Those aren't the packages offered for Bedard, but some of the names mentioned in different packages offered for Bedard. As for Bedard being better than Buerhle, the statistics are reasonably close, but the most telling statistic is innings pitched. Buerhle averages 70 more innings pitched per season. Since both pitchers are the aces of their teams, having your best pitcher on the mound for an extra 70 innings a season is significant. In other words, Buerhle pitches 43% more innings per season.

Depending on what they get in return, this would be a very smart move for the White Sox. They need to realize that they are not contenders for 2008.

Then I ask those people: what is to stop Williams from turning around and flipping Swisher for a better package in two years if that's the case? He's under contract for so long these arguments don't hold water. Williams can flip Swisher in 2 years for a better package, but in the meantime the Sox will finish 3rd or 4th with Swisher. In 2 years, the package they will have to get for Swisher will have to replace Thome, Dye, Vasquez, Cabrera, and an aging Konerko. As Phil Rogers (Yuch!) pointed out, the Swisher deal is great if you are contending in 2008 or you have a deep minor league system. Neither of those applies to the White Sox.

Buerhle could have gotten them 2-3 cornerstone prospects alone. that's insane. or you and i have different definitions of "cornerstone." May I suggest you look at some of the offers the Orioles are considering for Bedard and tell me the White Sox couldn't get the same offer (or better) for Buerhle. why would they get a better offer for buerhle? i haven't seen any offers for bedard that include 2-3 cornerstone prospects. feel free to throw a few at me. The rumors that I have seen have mentioned these names: Seattle: Adam Jones, Jeff Clement, Wladamir Balentin, Young Chin-Chen,Tillman, Sherrill Cincinati: Joey Votto, Homer Bailey, Johnny Cueto Dodgers: Kemp, Broxton, Kershaw, Meloan,Hu, LaRoche, McDonald Mets: Gomez, Heilman, Humber I think you can find a package there that would include 2-3 cornerstone prospects. Buerhle is a better pitcher than Bedard and would probably bring in a few more interested teams.

Buerhle could have gotten them 2-3 cornerstone prospects alone. that's insane. or you and i have different definitions of "cornerstone." May I suggest you look at some of the offers the Orioles are considering for Bedard and tell me the White Sox couldn't get the same offer (or better) for Buerhle.

Assuming the Roberts deal happens, I would think that before the Cubs would get involved with trading for a pitcher (Blanton, Nathan, Street,etc.) Hendry would have to reload with prospects by trading someone like Marquis or Dempster. I suppose this kind of deal might happen in spring training when teams have a better idea of their strengths and weaknesses.

While Blanton and Street might be very good additions, they are not necessarily positions of need for the Cubs. The first priority seems to be getting Roberts and that would take some of the prospects that would go to Oakland for one of their pitchers. After using Gallagher, Murton, and Patterson (as rumored), Beane would have to take lower level prospects (Colvin, Veal, etc.)

Buerhle could have gotten them 2-3 cornerstone prospects alone. Konerko would get them probably 2 more. Dye might get you a top AA prospect.