Backtobanks

I think Hendry wanted the deal done for the Cub Convention. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting, but I do think there's an outside chance it could still happen before the season starts.

You're definitely on a whole different plane again. Why would this organization consider Marquis and Dempster as obvious trade bait? Perhaps the other players named could be trade considerations, but all of them are young enough to ride out the veteran contracts blocking full-time spots, and several of them are already prime candidates for the 25-man roster. Marquis and Dempster have definitive penciled-in slots and I'm not sure what leads you to believe otherwise. Also, none of the names on your list are imminent, flashing-light must-trade targets. Murton, Marshall, and Gallagher are probably the names other teams would be interested in, particularly teams with mid-market payrolls. All are worthy of shots at full-time spots, particularly for a mid-market team trying to compete on a budget. But they are not must-trade names, and the Cubs would be foolish as an organization to feel a burning need to move them now. Additionally, I cannot honestly believe you think most of the people on this board "downgrade" Cubs players and prospects in the context of trade worthiness. The reality is that board tends towards extremes without considering the middle. Players or prospects are most often deemed either untouchable, grossly inflated-value, or worthless, with the youth tending toward the former and the veterans tending toward the latter. These types of extremes puts a player like Murton into the gray around here, and you'll hear arguments for why he has great value or little value. Murton will probably fall into the Walker-syndrome hole of baseball value. But the bottom-line is that I don't see why you think "It is pretty obvious there have to be more moves coming." With no additional moves, the Cubs field the likely choice (along with the Brewers) to head analysts division winner lists. You could pencil in a starting lineup and 5-man rotation right now, with more certainty than most other organizations. I think there is a legitimate argument to be made that the Cubs should look for more improvements, particularly at SS, but it isn't obvious that another move is coming, and any trade made at this stage would be a marginal upgrade to the team. The reason I consider some of these players trade bait is that Lou has lost confidence in their ability. Dempster is floating between the rotation and the bullpen while there are better options on the team (for less money). Marquis is basically considered a starter, but nobody thinks he's good enough and again there are better, younger, and cheaper options (unless they're traded). I've written before that I think Murton, Marshall, and Cedeno could have good careers, but Lou doesn't seem to trust any of them enough to give them a shot. While I agree that none of the players have to be traded, I think Hendry still feels like he needs to make a deal or two and the players that I mentioned (along with other prospects) are the players that seem to be the most expendable without disrupting the core of the team.

Maybe there's more of a market for starters.

those cats look like they hit left handed and hit out of the two hole Kaz might not be suited for the top of the order period but Figgins and Roberts are standard leadoff hitter targets that Hendry has been after before. Fukodome is Jim's likely answer in the two hole, will be interesting to see where Piniella places him. I don't think Fukudome will bat 2nd if they get a lefty leadoff man. Lou would like to break up all the right-handed hitters.

I still don't think Sandberg is ready. Of course, if Lou stays for 2-3 more years after this one, then Sandberg might be ready.

It is pretty obvious there have to be more moves coming. The Cubs are still loaded (or bloated) with trade bait. Looking at the roster, I see Marshall, Gallagher, Marquis, Dempster, Cedeno, Fuld, Murton, and Patterson as possible spare parts on this team. Obviously, players like Fuld, Patterson, and Gallagher could still be sent down to AAA, but that still leaves 5 other players that are expected to be on a (not necessarily our) major league roster. The latest rumor has Hendry looking at Marlon Byrd which would make Murton very expendable. Most of us downgrade our players and prospects, but I still think players like Murton, Cedeno, Marshall, Gallagher, and Patterson should have some value for a team looking for young players. Contrary to popular belief around here, there are worse pitchers than Dempster and Marquis on some pitching staffs. I don't know who or when, but there has to be a deal or two out there that Hendry can make to improve the team.

And posters think I make up ridiculous trades. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Peralta + DeRosa (with Theriot as sub)>>> Theriot + Roberts (with DeRosa as sub). Also, the Indians may not demand as much for Peralta (since he would be an "extra" IF). Nobody knows the truth about the demands, but when I started reading that the Orioles wanted more than the three names mentioned, I decided that it wasn't worth the price.

There has been speculation that the Indians might be offering a package deal for Roberts. I'm so tired of the whole Roberts mess that I think a trade to the Indians might work in our favor. After getting Roberts, Peralta would be available. Since I've been advocating trying to acquire a SS (position of need) instead of a marginal upgrade at 2B, this might be more desirable. Another advantage might be that you don't have to deal with Angelos, MacPhail, and the idol-like reputation of Roberts in Baltimore. Some of the same rumored names (Gallagher, Marshall, Murton, Patterson, Cedeno, etc.) could be packaged to be sent to the Indians for Peralta.

Just another example of the East Coast hype on over valueing their prospects. One minute Cabrera is one of the pieces in a trade for Santana and the next minute they're ready to trade him for prospects. Cabrera is a decent player, but by no means a star.

WiE, I don't know. On Pie, I suspect Hendry has a public stance ("we're not trading him") and a private stance ("we'll move him in the right deal"). I think there is concern about his hitting. Hoops, we seem to be agreeing on the last few topics. I think Hendry and Lou know that this team is close to being a very good team and picking up a CF and trading Pie to improve the team wouldn't surprise me. For all of the talk about Lou playing youngsters (over Dusty), the bottom line is that very few baseball people don't turn to veterans at crunch time. Look at the 2007 Cubs with players like Kendall, Monroe, etc. over Soto, Murton, etc.

Cabrera for Dempster or Marquis would be great. Unless there's some big deal brewing for Pie, use Cabrera as a 4th OF.

The reason for that is that usually the trade has prospects going to a team that needs prospects, so it doesn't really look like we're giving up anything significant. To a team going nowhere like the Orioles, getting possible 5-tool players like Pie and Jones, possibly a future All Star in Triunfel, a lefty RP and starter could make them serious contenders in 2 years. Would that be true if they kept Bedard, Roberts, and Payton? To be honest, I'm one of the posters who thinks the rumored Roberts deal is giving up too much for a marginal upgrade at 2B.

Mariners get: Bedard (Orioles), Murton (Cubs) Royals get: Clement (Mariners), Patterson (Cubs) Orioles get: Jones, Sherrill, Triunfel (Mariners), Pie, Marshall (Cubs) Cubs get: Dejesus (Royals), Roberts, Payton (Orioles) Mariners get #1 starter and replacement for Jones. Royals get needed young C and young 2B/utility OF for expendable CF. Orioles get CF, LF, #4 or #5 starter, lefty RP, and future SS. Cubs get CF, leadoff man 2B, and reserve OF. Won't happen, but it's fun to try (got to do something while we wait). Can you imagine trying to get 4 GMs together on a deal, especially when two of them are JH and AM. Cubs could still use DeRosa, Dempster, plus ??? for Burnett. Roberts DeJesus DLee ARam Fukudome Soriano Soto Theriot

I'm not saying I'm right, but when I think about the subject of player upgrades, I think about it in terms of performance by position on the field, not batting order. I like Brian Roberts. And if you told me that acquiring him would mean that Mark DeRosa was shifting to SS, I'd be all over the deal. But everything we have heard to date suggests that the only thing a Roberts acquisition does is make DeRosa a "super-sub." That means Ryan Theriot is still starting at SS, and I (like many others here) have a huge problem with that coupled with Felix Pie starting in CF. Their OBPs suggest we will have near 3 automatic outs everytime through the line-up. That's unacceptable for a team spending $125M. Roberts may be better that DeRosa, but the difference is slight in my opinion. The real opportunity is to upgrade at SS and/or CF. The trade focus should be on those positions and a #2 starter. Finally, someone that totally agrees with me. Using Cedeno, Marshall, Gallagher, Murton, Dempster, Marquis, Patterson, plus whatever other youngsters should have been enough to get a decent SS/CF and starting pitcher instead of a marginal upgrade at 2B.

In regards to acquiring a SS, maybe the Indians trade for Roberts, and then trade either Peralta or Cabrera to the Cubs? What do you think the Indians would need to trade Peralta? From Ken Rosenthal: "The Cubs remain the most likely fit for Roberts. The Mets made a strong run at Bedard at the general managers' meetings in November. The Indians, who have explored trades for impact players all off-season, like both Roberts and Bedard." I'm so tired of waiting for the Roberts deal that I would almost welcome your thought above. I've tried to make the case that I think the resources being used to obtain Roberts could be used to upgrade SS. I still think the upgrade from DeRosa to Roberts is minimal.

This isn't true, but w/e. Keep being ignorant and oblivious to the truth if you want. Now you see why I keep bringing up Greene. The only real SSs that I see that are upgrades and might be available are Greene, Peralta, and Furcal.

I'm still hard at work trying to get us a SS. The Pirates are trying to restock their minor league system and are upset that Xavier Nady doesn't seem to have the trade value that they had hoped. How about we help them out with with this 3-way deal: Padres get: Xavier Nady, Jack Wilson (from Pirates) Fuld/Patterson (from Cubs) Cubs get: Greene, Hairston (from Padres) Pirates get: Theriot, Fontenot, Fuld/Patterson, Veal (from Cubs) I tried not to use any of the players mentioned in the Roberts trade (Gallagher, Marshall, Cedeno). Roberts Fukudome DLee ARam Soriano Soto Greene Pie =D>

Don't kid yourself about "3 B prospects". They were 3 of the top 8 in the Sox farm system. Being 3 of of the best in a bad bunch doesn't make them blue chippers. And a .251 hitter isn't ARod either. Swisher is a good acquisition by the White Sox with very good power numbers for a CF. If he moves to LF, RF, or 1B, his numbers are okay but not great. As you (and others) have pointed out, he is under team control at a fair price for several years which makes this a good deal.

As far as I can tell, the bottom line is that most of us would like Roberts as our 2B because he would be an upgrade (marginal, modest, or significant) over DeRosa. The problem gets to be what package should you send to the Orioles to justify this marginal, modest, or significant upgrade.

DeRosa has been very consistent statistically the last two years as a starter which is why many of us think he can repeat his numbers from 2006-2007 ( .295, .374, .438, .802). Of course his numbers fall when you count the years he was a utility IF and not getting regular playing time. Also, I wish all of you posters out there who hint that DeRosa will get significant playing time at SS would realize that the Cubs have no plans for him at SS. They have stated that Theriot is the starter and they're looking for a sub SS who can bat left-handed (Cintron?). As for DeRosa strengthening the bench, we can find a right-handed pinch hitter for a lot less than Marshall, Gallagher, and Cedeno.

I still think the phrase "marginal upgrade" is pretty accurate. Looking at the stats, the only clear cut advantages that Roberts has is more speed and switch hitting. If you look at the last two years for DeRosa (when he was a starter), his stats are much better than Roberts' career averages (except for stolen bases). Roberts career avg: 10 hr, 61 rbi, .281, .351, .409, .760 DeRosa (as a starter): 12 hr, 73 rbi, .295, .374, .438, .802 I'd rather have Roberts but again the stats aren't overwhelming, so we shouldn't give up 4 players for him.

Don't kid yourself about "3 B prospects". They were 3 of the top 8 in the Sox farm system.

"To me, Roberts over DeRosa in itself is more than a marginal upgrade. Couple it with the fact that you either have DeRosa taking the bench ABs away from the likes of Fontenot and others or you're flipping DeRosa for another SP (i.e. Burnett), and it's a clear cut upgrade." I agree that if you are going to flip DeRosa for someone like Burnett, then I don't have a problem with the Roberts deal. The problem is that the latest rumors have a lot of our trade bait, that might be packaged with DeRosa, going for the upgrade (marginal or not) at 2B.

These latest rumors being kicked around (Gallagher, Cedeno, Marshall, and Fuld for Roberts or add Murton and receive Payton) are getting ridiculous. (Warning - If the Cubs get Payton, there goes Pie's playing time.) I would love to get Roberts, but the upgrade from DeRosa would be minimal. I still insist that trading that many players could get us Greene, Peralta, Furcal, or a good starting pitcher, which would help more than Roberts. If some of these rumors are true, Hendry must be preparing for a job in Baltimore with his former boss.