Backtobanks

I agree with you to an extent, but this team is at the point where they need an elite bat or 2 to have any hopes for the next 3-4 years. I like the idea of taking chances on the Ian Stewarts and Daric Bartons of the world, but at some,point you need a solid foundation to build upon. Our farm system is almost built to produce role players to be used as pieces to build around bigger guys to who would be aquired through trade or free agency. If we dont end up paying for Fielder, we'll have to pay for somebody, and I don't think that another Prince Fielde and certainly not another Albert Pujols will be hitting the market anybtime soon. If they do, they'll be just as expensive and there will be reasons not to give them what they're expected to get, however, there will always be someone willing to give it to them. Unless we want to watch Starlin Castro and Brett Jackson surrounded by various incarnations of Marlon Byrd, David DeJesus, and Jeff Baker until we can finally produce our own superstars we'll need to start adding some top players, and those aren't just going to fall into our lap for nothing. Exactly my sentiments. All of this "bargain hunting" is starting to piss me off. Unless someone can guarantee that we will win the bidding wars on Darvish, Cespedes, Soler, etc., it's time to start building a decent team for 2012 and a winner in 2013. As many holes as there are for 2012, there are more holes for 2013 unless all of our top prospects overreach their potential this year. Your comment about surrounding Castro and Jackson with mediocrity is based on the fact that Jackson is going to be a solid ML player, which isn't a sure thing.

Are there really that many young players on the Reds that can get significantly better? There could be a few marginal improvements (which would still make them a better team), but Votto, Cueto, Leake, Bruce have all been about as good as they're going to get at this point - with maybe Cueto getting a little better. Alonso is stuck on the bench until Votto is traded, Dusty probably broke Volquez, Bailey's an enigma (hard to tell what he'll do going forward), and I'm not much of a Drew Stubbs fan. They could get a big boost from moving Chapman to the rotation, but I'm not sure Dusty's open to doing that and even if he does, there's the concern over how big a jump he can make in innings. Travis Wood could also help them out if he gets better. We keep hearing about how the Reds are going to be really good when all these great young players develop, but that's been the refrain for about 5 years now. This could be the year they do it, but I still don't see them being a good bet to be better than mid-80s in wins and I think that's the area the Cubs can reach if they don't go with the 3-5 year rebuilding plan. As for the pursuit of Prince/Darvish, I think the weak division should make the Cubs a bit more aggressive in pursuing both. They shouldn't dole out silly contracts, but I think they should be a bit more open to overpaying a little than they may have been before. For instance, if Theo/Hoyer feel comfortable going 5 years with Prince, but it'll take 6 to get him to sign, I think the weak division and the very real shot to win now should get them to do that. But if Theo/Hoyer feel comfortable going 5 years and Prince is looking for 8, I don't think you do that. Same with Darvish. I would go a little past my comfort level because of the weak division, but I wouldn't give out silly contracts. Let's be honest, any "name" FA for the next 5 years is going to be overpaid. Theo/Hoyer need to decide who their priorities are in this year's crop of FAs and pay what they have to pay (without going into Soriano country) to begin the process. Finding value in a player is only going to build a winner if all of our prospects develop into stars (not likely).

I'm holding out for Dimitri Young. He's coming back after losing 70 pounds. I would assume he would be cheap and wouldn't demand 8-10 years. :yahoo:

I agree with your assessment, but my thought was that the WS would get Alonzo with the thought of trading him to a team needing a 1B (Cubs) because of their glut of 1B/DH candidates.

Good to know I'm back on your radar. I was beginning to feel neglected. Are Erik, Davearm and Hollansdsworths Mug on vacation? Still, if I make I trade proposal I acknowledge that it's not likely but everyone involve gets something of value. Never have I made a suggestion in which the other team involved seemingly go out of the way to help the Cubs while they acquire our spare parts. You mean like this one: Alternately, in honor of B2B, what if: Cubs get Headley Stewart Padres get Russell Seth Smith(they're reportedly shopping him) 1 good Cubs prospect, not Szczur, Jackson, or McNutt and ideally not Vitters. Rockies get Colvin or DeWitt LeMahieu (I'd prefer keep him and send them Colvin and DeWitt but if they're giving up Stewart and Smith in the deal I doubt they'd bite) Maine Hudson We'd be giving up 1 solid-good LH reliever or spot starter if your manager is an idiot, 1 potentially decent LH reliever, 1 good prospect, 1 guy who could be non tendered, and a young guy with a decent ceiling who would be made up for by the guys we're getting. Maybe we could even get a Padres prospect or Kyle Blanks out of the deal since the Padres seem to actually be getting the best take out of the deal. That trade proposal ranks right up there with any of mine. Getting Headley and Stewart while giving up Russell, Colvin/Dewitt, DJ, Maine, and a prospect. Nope the only guy with any actual value in this deal that we get is Headley. Stewart was a non tender candidate to begin with. We got him for Colvin and LeMahieu and got another decent prospect. Depending on Headleys actual value, which is debateable, its not unrealistic to think that he could be had for Russell, whom the Padres had expressed interest at the time I proposed this, and remember it clearly says one good prospect, which could be somewhere along the lines of Lake, Castillo, or Struck and would consider Vitters if wed get something else in return and then kick in DeWitt and Maine or another middling reliever. Remember we have no idea what the Padres would want for Headley. He has solid road splits though not much power but overall, he's far from a difference maker. Now as 2 separate transactions, these are far from unreasonable. I only brought it up as a 3 team because the Rockies are shopping Smith and the Padres Hudson. I get a lot of ribbing about the trade proposals, but any trade (especially involving veterans and prospects) ends up being criticized by one side or the other. Obviously the reason is that the veteran has a known value while the prospects have a perceived value. While there are a few "sure thing" prospects, the bottom line is that they still need to prove their value. Of course proposing a 3-way trade increases the chances of 1 team getting the "best" deal and 1 team getting screwed. I do think many NSBB posters overvalue other teams' prospects and devalue our players when it comes to lining up with a trade partner. That being said, I wouldn't trade Garza for anything less than a king's ransom.

They haven't traded anybody of value yet. Listening to offers is different than trading. True, but I was just comparing in my mind the new front office compared to Jim Hendry. I know they haven't traded anybody of value yet. But I have confidence they are going to beable to build the Cubs much better than Hendry ever did. I'm not saying you trade value as soon as you get it. I'm just happy they realize that never parting with anybody, trading prospects while they still have value, not just doing a yearly overpaid veteran bandaide free agency splurge. These are the types of things I feel Theo and Hoyer will do much better than Jim Hendry. They've already done much better in just their short time. They got 2 extra draft picks by offering arb to guys the knew probably wouldn't be back. I don't think I can remember Hendry ever offering anyone arbitration. I have more confidence in the new FO than Hendry, but I think we have to wait until they really do something before he heap on the praise. l get excited during the offseason too, but I want to see the results on the field starting with this year. As others have pointed out, the NL Central has taken quite a hit (assuming Fielder leaves) and there's no reason why we can't contend this year. Waiting for 2013 is great, but it gives the other teams time to rebound too.

Good to know I'm back on your radar. I was beginning to feel neglected. Are Erik, Davearm and Hollansdsworths Mug on vacation? Still, if I make I trade proposal I acknowledge that it's not likely but everyone involve gets something of value. Never have I made a suggestion in which the other team involved seemingly go out of the way to help the Cubs while they acquire our spare parts. You mean like this one: Alternately, in honor of B2B, what if: Cubs get Headley Stewart Padres get Russell Seth Smith(they're reportedly shopping him) 1 good Cubs prospect, not Szczur, Jackson, or McNutt and ideally not Vitters. Rockies get Colvin or DeWitt LeMahieu (I'd prefer keep him and send them Colvin and DeWitt but if they're giving up Stewart and Smith in the deal I doubt they'd bite) Maine Hudson We'd be giving up 1 solid-good LH reliever or spot starter if your manager is an idiot, 1 potentially decent LH reliever, 1 good prospect, 1 guy who could be non tendered, and a young guy with a decent ceiling who would be made up for by the guys we're getting. Maybe we could even get a Padres prospect or Kyle Blanks out of the deal since the Padres seem to actually be getting the best take out of the deal. That trade proposal ranks right up there with any of mine. Getting Headley and Stewart while giving up Russell, Colvin/Dewitt, DJ, Maine, and a prospect.

This was the thought that came to me. The division was already looking very weakened with Pujols and Prince both leaving it. Now with Braun out for 50 games, the Brewers (who I consider the only actual good team in the division) may well not be able to reach that 90 win mark. This makes it that much more possible for the Cubs to contend in 2012 and that much more important that we don't engage in a 3-5 year unnecessary rebuilding process. This season could likely be a huge turning point for the division. How to the Cardinals move on post Pujols? Do the Cubs try to win now with Fielder and a few other teams? The Reds could really use a frontline starter and certainly have the chips to get one with Votto or Alonzo, and even then how good are they really? The Brewers could be the favorites, but if they dont like the way things are going by July they can really help their future by moving Greinke, Marcum, K Rod, and Hart. The Phillies are the league favs once again but the rest of the NL doesn't have anything else awe inspiring. If we land Fielder and get good seasons out of Zambrano, Soto, Stewart, DeJesus, and whoever we keep of Byrd and Soriano there's no reason we can't contend. Im not saying we have a 95 game winner in our hands, but especially with the 2 added playoff spots(I think that starts this coming season) it should be an interesting sesason. We could use a front line starter but if we don't get one now perhaps we can in the summer if we contend. People also underestimate the fact that taking Pujols and Fielder out of their lineups gives teams a chance to pitch around players like Holliday and Braun. Having Braun out of the lineup really hurts the Brewers (assuming they lose Fielder).

If you're referring to the Braun news motivating the Brewers to up their offer to Prince, I don't see that happening. Braun potentially being suspended won't give them additional resources, at least not nearly enough to make a difference. The Cardinals won't be in play regardless. This improves the Cubs chances incrementally, but not enough to motivate Jed/Theo to do something significant they otherwise wouldn't, IMO. Having said that, I think the Cubs will make a play for Fielder regardless. But you don't drastically alter your big picture plans because Braun will miss 50 games next year. Braun will miss 50 games and might come back with the power of Ryan Theriot.

They haven't traded anybody of value yet. Listening to offers is different than trading.

I haven't made a 3-team trade proposal for awhile, so here goes: Reds get Gavin Floyd from WS and Marlon Byrd from the Cubs. White Sox get Randy Wells from the Cubs, Edinson Volquez from the Reds, and prospect (?) from Cubs. Cubs get Yonder Alonzo from the Reds and Travis Wood from the Reds. Cubs use Fielder money to go after Darvish, Cespedes, Soler, etc. Reds get a good starter, a solid LF. WS get 2 starters and prospect for Floyd.

Your explanation is why Theo & Co. have to get moving pretty soon. You've got a ton of holes in your proposal for 2013 and while we will have more money to spend, there's no guarantee that we will win any bidding wars or that wanted FAs won't re-sign before hitting free agency. Also, the other problem with "going young" is that Cespedes, Darvis, Stewart/Vitters/Lake, Jackson, Shark (as a SP), and McNutt have yet to prove they have ML ability.

Quote: "With our first two significant moves, we've attempted to make the team less right-handed than it has been and we've attempted to add better defense. We feel very good with both moves that we've done that." This quote does conjure up memories of Jim Hendry.

This. .. is completely wrong. We're past the GM meetings and past the winter meeting. We are well into the offseason. Stop pretending it's early. I agree, but a few, perhaps some people do need to calm down. The mass media (mostly radio) and meatheads are going to be whipping it up. Theo took control of a mediocre organization that was trending in the wrong direction. Also, we don't know what's going on with the renovations. I think the Ricketts are in investment mode right now and I don't blame them for not giving out too much money (I don't think you do either). It's not just the mass media and the meatheads, look at the number of posts on NSBB about the new FO and expectations. If the Cubs are going to be contenders in 2013, Theo is going to have to start doing something pretty soon or he will have a ton of holes to fill next offseason.

I think the Ricketts' and Theo have a long term plan and they are sticking to it. As long as "long-term plan" doesn't mean decades (or centuries) :lol: .

FWIW, this was the same commentary every time the Jim Hendry Cubs had a garbage offseason. Yeah, we would have had 10 pages of "donut" comments if Hendry came out with the same results after the winter meeting.

It's not like he hasn't done anything - he did buy a great house within walking distance from Wrigley. :lol:

Well I guess the Cubs aren't the "mystery 3rd team in on Pujols". from MLBTR: We heard late last night that there is "no shot" Albert Pujols will make a decision before the Winter Meetings end. Still, here's the latest on the man who has $200MM+ offers from three teams including the Cardinals, Angels, and a mystery team who would reportedly need to trade an established first baseman to clear a path for the three-time MVP:

The worst part of all of this Marlin stuff is that it will make Ozzie look like a good manager when they win some games.

Probably not everyday. He hasn't played there since 2009, and he wasn't that good there. But he could play there from time-to-time. I don't want Stewart as the everyday 3B for any reason, but I'd be fine if he got the ABs that DeWitt got last year. And like DeWitt, he is serviceable at 2B, 3B, and corner OF (LF). Why not? Other than Headley, I don't see a realistic 3B option that's guaranteed to outperform Stewart. Wouldn't suprise me too much if he had a higher OPS than Headley, actually. Daniel Murphy.

He's going to pay off the mortgage by renting out his garage (4-car) spaces during Cub games.

I want both. If the plan is to not go after any big money guys than I'd prefer to go for a handful of guys like this. Also, I really havn't heard much concrete evidence that the Pads are asking to much for Headley, just speculation. Now if the Padres asked for Sean Marshall straight up for Healdey what would people think about it? I'd go for it. we still have Marmol, Wood(probably), Russell, Dolis, Samardzjia(or Cashner, 1 will be in the pen), Carpenter, Beliveau, Gaub, and Whereabouts Unknown Guzman to put together a solid pen. I'd also like to take that ambidexterious fellow in the Rule 5 if he's there by the time our pick comes around. Even if Marmols traded it's decent if Cashners ready to take the closers role. Marhalls great, but he's a free agent after this year and we've all seen how highly back end bullpen guys are, especially lefities. If anyone views him as a possible closer, that makes himeven more expensive. If we could do Marshall for Headley and LeMahieu(although I'd first prefer see if they'd take Colvin or DeWitt in his place) and Maine for Stewart, I really can't see any reason not to be happy about it. If you're going to start floating Marshall's name out there, the Yankees would probably start offering more valuable pieces than Headley. If I made that trade proposal there would be 3 pages of posts making fun of me. We would be getting Headley and Stewart while giving up Russell and a few maybes. I think we ought to go after Daniel Murphy unless the Padres and/or Rockies meet our offers.

I'd much rather see Garza retained, but if the return is too good to pass up, so be it. "I'd much rather see Garza retained, but if and only if the return is too good to pass up, so be it." Fixed

It may be posturing, but what I've read the Padres are asking for a ton to get Headley. Headley is a solid player, but he's not Santo, Schmidt, or Ramirez. If the asking price is too high, we ought to go after Stewart and see what he can do. It looks like 2012 is a year of transition anyhow.

Anybody's available for the right price.