Mephistopheles

and prior and wood are "just a couple guys". when you look compare the high PC guys to the low PC guys, they get hurt at a pretty close rate. Even step back from looking at 100 to 120 pitches. Look at relievers to starters. Relievers throw what, maybe 60-70 pitches a week with even more rest than the starters. Yet they have TJ, shoulder and other problems just as often as starters. Im not saying PCs have no impact, Im just saying it's very little compared to other problems, like Prior's throwing motion. That was what probably hurt him, not the PCs.

But probably something like 95% of the most fatigued and stressful motions. Pretending that the 120th pitch is at all equal to the 1st is silly. thats probably not true when you look workout sessions. just go dig back through the 1960s stuff. You get stories of guys throwing 150 pitches consistently. Let's not be stupid, these guys could throw in the low 90s with good power curves and other things. Whatever difference there is now is minimal. Like i said there's little, if any, evidence to backup the claim that high pitch counts cause injuries. The actual motion itself is what's most important. If you have a problem with your throwing motion, like Prior does, every single throw you make hurts you. Regardless if its on the field or in the bullpen. When you look at that, the impact of 10-20 additional pitches becomes very small again. BR has pitch counts from 1988 on for Clemens (his age 25 season) 1988: He threw 150+ pitches four times. He threw 140+ another three times. He threw 130+ six more times. 1989: He thew 130+ 12 times, including 2 150+ games. Over the course of those two seasons he had 25 games with 130 or more pitches. He's been fine since. After 1990 pitch counts became more visible and the media started to scream about them so his PC slowly declined with time but he still went 130+ quite often. Let's look at Orel Hershiser! 1988: He topped 130 pitches once. 1989: He topped 130 pitches five times. Guess who missed most of the 1990 season with shoulder surgery? Not the guy who had the higher pitch counts. Let's look at Nolan Ryans 1989 season. I would assume that more pitches on a 42 year old arm would be more damaging than on a 23 year old arm, but thats me. 160-169: 1 150-159: 1 140-149: 5 130-139: 9 120-129: 5 110-119: 5 100-109: 4 090-099: 1 (99) Unknown: 1 He was fine. 1990 and 1991 were much of the same. He threw even more pitches when he was younger. Theres NO doubt in my mind that the arms in the 60s, 70s and 80s had more pitches than todays and as much torque. Arguing otherwise is stupid.

Please provide an example of these "many pitchers" that had similar loads. Remember, we aren't talking IP, we're talking pitches. Every pitcher in the 1960s? if you think every pitcher in the 1960's threw as hard with as much torque on their arms as Wood and Prior you are truly fooling yourself theres also little evidence to support that more pitches cause more injuries. lets be frank, those 120 pitches are far from the only movements the arm does over the course of the season. When you look at bullpens (even when theyre at say 85%), all the long toss sessions, all the arm strengthening routines and everything else, those additional 10 pitches each start represent less than say 1% of all the motion the arm goes through.

Please provide an example of these "many pitchers" that had similar loads. Remember, we aren't talking IP, we're talking pitches. Every pitcher in the 1960s?

you can quickly see with BR CarGm TmG Date Opp DR GmReslt Pitcher Result IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA BF Pit Str GmSc IR IS Situat. In/Out Inn Rnr O Scr SB CS Pk AB 2B 3B IW HB SH SF RE DP +-----+---+---------+----+--+-------+--------------+----+--+--+--+--+--+--+------+--+---+---+----+--+--+--------------+--------------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+ 20 3 Apr 3 @NYM - W 6-3 GS-6 ,W 1-0 6 4 1 1 2 7 0 1.50 24 105 70 65 1b start a 2 6b 3 out a 4 0 0 0 22 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 21 8 Apr 9 MON 5 W 3-0 SHO9 ,W 2-0 9 4 0 0 0 12 0 0.60 31 112 88 91 1t start tie 9t 3 out a 3 0 0 0 31 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 22 13 Apr 14 CIN 4 L 3-11 GS-6 ,L 2-1 6 5 5 3 2 6 0 1.71 25 95 65 50 1t start tie 6t 3 out d 4 0 1 1 21 3 0 0 0 2 0 1 0 23 18 Apr 19 @PIT 4 W 6-1 GS-9 ,W 3-1 9 6 1 1 2 6 0 1.50 33 112 80 75 1b start tie 9b 3 out tie 0 0 1 31 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 24 23 Apr 25 @COL 5 W 11-7 GS-8 ,W 4-1 7 5 2 2 1 7 0 1.70 28 116 79 65 1b start tie 8b 1-- 0 a 7 1 0 0 26 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 25 28 May 1 @SFG 5 W 5-1 GS-6 6 6 1 1 3 7 0 1.67 27 97 63 60 1b start tie 6b 3 out tie 0 1 0 22 1 1 1 1 0 1 1 0 26 33 May 6 MIL 4 L 6-9 GS-6 6 5 3 1 2 7 0 1.65 28 105 65 59 1t start tie 7t 1-- 0 a 2 0 0 0 24 0 1 0 1 0 1 2 0 27 37 May 12 @MIL 5 W 11-5 GS-6 ,W 5-1 6 7 4 4 4 11 2 2.13 29 124 83 49 1b start a 1 6b 3 out a 6 1 0 0 25 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 28 42 May 17 @STL 4 W 2-1 GS-8 7.1 6 1 1 2 6 1 2.02 30 104 66 66 1b start tie 8b --- 1 tie 0 1 0 26 0 0 0 0 2 0 1 0 29 47 May 23 @HOU 5 L 5-7 GS-7 ,L 5-2 6.2 7 7 6 3 6 1 2.61 31 111 68 37 1b start a 2 7b 1-- 2 d 3 0 0 1 28 1 0 0 0 0 0 2 1 30 52 May 28 PIT 4 W 5-4 GS-8 ,W 6-2 7.2 8 4 4 0 8 0 2.82 31 123 84 55 1t start tie 8t -2- 2 a 1 0 0 1 31 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 31 56 Jun 3 TBD 5 W 3-2 GS-8 8 8 2 2 1 5 0 2.76 32 124 77 62 1t start tie 8t 3 out d 1 1 1 1 30 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 32 61 Jun 8 NYY 4 W 8-7 GS-6 ,W 7-2 6 7 3 3 1 10 2 2.88 27 107 71 55 1t start tie 6t 3 out a 3 0 0 0 24 3 0 0 2 0 0 0 1 33 66 Jun 14 @TOR 5 W 4-2 GS-6 ,W 8-2 5.2 7 2 0 2 8 1 2.71 27 119 74 57 1b start a 3 6b --3 2 a 2 0 0 2 25 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 34 71 Jun 19 @CIN 4 L 1-3 GS-6 ,L 8-3 6 7 2 1 1 5 0 2.64 25 107 70 56 1b start tie 6b 3 out d 1 0 1 0 23 2 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 35 77 Jun 26 MIL 6 L 3-5 GS-8 8 4 2 2 0 16 1 2.61 27 127 86 82 1t start tie 8t 3 out a 1 0 1 1 27 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 82 Jul 1 @PHI 4 L 3-4 GS-7 6.2 9 3 1 2 7 0 2.54 31 115 67 53 1b start tie 7b 12- 2 tie 0 0 0 29 2 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 37 87 Jul 6 STL 4 L 1-4 GS-7 ,L 8-4 7 5 4 4 3 11 1 2.69 29 114 76 59 1t start tie 7t 3 out d 4 0 0 0 26 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 38 92 Jul 11 ATL 4 L 5-9 GS-5 ,L 8-5 4.2 6 6 6 3 5 2 3.01 23 95 56 30 1t start tie 5t 1-- 2 d 5 0 0 0 19 2 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 39 111 Aug 5 @SDP 24 W 3-0 GS-6 ,W 9-5 6 2 0 0 1 6 0 2.87 20 79 52 73 1b start tie 6b 3 out a 1 0 1 0 19 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 +-----+---+---------+----+--+-------+--------------+----+--+--+--+--+--+--+------+--+---+---+----+--+--+--------------+--------------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+ CarGm TmG Date Opp DR GmReslt Pitcher Result IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA BF Pit Str GmSc IR IS Situat. In/Out Inn Rnr O Scr SB CS Pk AB 2B 3B IW HB SH SF RE DP +-----+---+---------+----+--+-------+--------------+----+--+--+--+--+--+--+------+--+---+---+----+--+--+--------------+--------------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+ 40 116 Aug 10 @LAD 4 W 3-1 CG 9 ,W 10-5 9 5 1 1 1 9 0 2.76 31 116 84 81 1b start a 2 9b 3 out a 2 1 1 0 29 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 41 121 Aug 15 LAD 4 W 2-1 CG 9 ,W 11-5 9 7 1 1 0 5 0 2.65 34 118 82 74 1t start tie 9t 3 out a 1 0 0 0 33 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 42 125 Aug 20 @HOU 4 W 6-0 GS-7 ,W 12-5 7 4 0 0 1 9 0 2.54 26 100 71 77 1b start tie 7b 3 out a 6 0 0 0 24 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 43 130 Aug 26 @STL 5 W 7-4 GS-8 ,W 13-5 8 3 1 1 1 6 1 2.47 28 116 76 77 1b start tie 8b 3 out a 6 1 0 0 27 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 44 136 Sep 1 STL 5 W 7-0 GS-8 ,W 14-5 8 5 0 0 3 8 0 2.36 31 131 88 77 1t start tie 8t 3 out a 7 0 0 0 27 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 45 142 Sep 6 @MIL 4 W 8-4 GS-7 ,W 15-5 7 10 3 3 1 7 1 2.41 30 129 86 51 1b start a 2 7b 3 out a 2 0 0 0 29 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 46 146 Sep 11 @MON 4 L 2-3 GS-6 ,L 15-6 5.2 10 3 3 3 8 0 2.48 31 109 74 42 1b start tie 6b 12- 2 d 3 1 0 1 27 3 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 47 151 Sep 16 NYM 4 W 3-2 GS-9 ,W 16-6 8.2 8 2 2 1 13 1 2.47 35 124 82 72 1t start tie 9t -2- 2 a 1 0 0 0 33 3 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 48 156 Sep 21 @PIT 4 W 4-1 GS-8 ,W 17-6 7.2 6 1 1 2 14 0 2.42 30 131 91 75 1b start a 2 8b 123 2 a 3 0 1 0 28 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 49 160 Sep 27(1) PIT 5 W 4-2 GS-7 ,W 18-6 6.2 7 2 2 2 10 1 2.43 29 133 92 60 1t start tie 7t 1-- 2 a 2 1 0 0 27 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0

So posting this isn't a good idea? Milwaukee Brewers IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA BF Pit-Str GB-FB GmSc IR-IS W Franklin 6.1 6 3 3 4 7 1 5.02 29 102-61 5-7 52 - L Vizcaino 0.2 0 0 0 0 1 0 9.51 2 5-4 0-1 2-0 L Estrella W (2-0) 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1.35 3 7-6 2-1 0-0 M DeJean S (16) 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 3.99 3 6-4 3-0 0-0 Totals 9 6 3 3 4 8 1 37 120-75 10-9 2-0 Chicago Cubs IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA BF Pit-Str GB-FB GmSc IR-IS M Prior 8 4 2 2 0 16 1 2.61 27 127-86 3-4 82 - J Borowski L (1-1) 1 2 3 3 1 1 1 2.61 6 24-12 1-1 0-0 Totals 9 6 5 5 1 17 2 33 151-98 4-5 0-0

We're talking about 300 games here...

I will remember you Will you remember me? Don’t let your life pass you by Weep not for the memories Remember the good times that we had? I let them slip away from us when things got bad How clearly I first saw you smilin’ in the sun Wanna feel your warmth upon me, I wanna be the one I will remember you Will you remember me? Don’t let your life pass you by Weep not for the memories I’m so tired but I can’t sleep Standin’ on the edge of something much too deep It’s funny how we feel so much but we cannot say a word We are screaming inside, but we can’t be heard But I will remember you Will you remember me? Don’t let your life pass you by Weep not for the memories I’m so afraid to love you, but more afraid to loose Clinging to a past that doesn’t let me choose Once there was a darkness, deep and endless night You gave me everything you had, oh you gave me light And I will remember you Will you remember me? Don’t let your life pass you by Weep not for the memories And I will remember you Will you remember me? Don’t let your life pass you by Weep not for the memories Weep not for the memories http://www.letstalkpitching.com/images/mark_prior_open_side.gif

he doesnt (at least hasnt shown it) walk enough to be grady sizemore. grady looks to walk 90-100 times a year the next 12 years. Colvin does not have that many walks since high school - summer college seasons included.

priors been hurt the entire time. whatever the problem was, hes never gotten it fixed.

After 2 starts? its more than two starts. it was similar last season

because with surgery once the rehab is over there's a chance hes healthy.

Gotta love our pitching prospects. Half of them walk everyone. The other half can't strike anyone out. Beautiful.

i saw him pitchin the aflac game. his motion is a lot like jake peavys but IMO more violent

well look at it this way, if he has surgery it means for sure he wont get any service time this year and he will be under the cubs control thru 09

hes not as good as either. hes probably comparable to jeff clement, maybe not quite as much power. clement could jack 40 bombs.

hahaha mainstream media and protection. hilarious.

its east coast conspiracy because it was against the red sox. im not shocked.

Pitching for Vero Beach is D-Rays hotshot lefty prospect Jacob McGee. :( i thought i read somewhere in ST that McGee's velo was down. Havent followed up on it at all though

hes like jet li but better

Go to the Game Thread forum, i've already taken care of that :D This isn't about that. This is about who are the best pitchers in the game. Is it Nameless, it just might be.

Lingfeng Sun?

... youre ruining it.

I really think the torch might have been passed to him. Santana just may not be the best pitcher in baseball anymore. This is Kerry Wood 1998 without the 20Ks and a lot more command and a lot more groundballs.

and now we're skipping our best starter for one day.