bring stone back

That was my point though. Bobby is still in baseball, and would be a viable managerial candidate, when what bsb has been arguing is that there aren't viable candidates available. At least I think that's what he's arguing, since he's asked about 4 times in this thread for managerial candidates. I honestly thought he was genuinely curious as to what Davey Johnson is up to nowadays.. Maybe I'm naive. :? That's exactly what I was wondering. I knew Valentine was in Japan and many former managers are working media in some capacity or a 1st/3rd base coach (Pujols, Pena, etc). I was just wondering where and what Johnson was up to. My bad then...thought you were being sarcastic. No worries...I'm not trying to start anything. I think we've had a nice dialogue on this topic. I am not completely against getting rid of Baker. It's just that if we do that, I want to see a legitimate managerial upgrade to come in and we don't repeat the Bruce Kimm debacle. I was just asking who that would/could be.

That was my point though. Bobby is still in baseball, and would be a viable managerial candidate, when what bsb has been arguing is that there aren't viable candidates available. At least I think that's what he's arguing, since he's asked about 4 times in this thread for managerial candidates. I honestly thought he was genuinely curious as to what Davey Johnson is up to nowadays.. Maybe I'm naive. :? That's exactly what I was wondering. I knew Valentine was in Japan and many former managers are working media in some capacity or a 1st/3rd base coach (Pujols, Pena, etc). I was just wondering where and what Johnson was up to.

Fair enough, but you still didn't answer my question as to what makes you think Dusty has what it takes to turn this around? Or what has he shown you that you think he is a good manager? I don't have that answer. I do think he is a guy the players respect and will play hard for. His teams do have a history of playing well in the second half, although his recent Cubs' teams would indicate otherwise. I'm not a huge Dusty supporter. Do I think he deserves a chance to get this team out of their hole? Yes, I do. However, if the management really think he's to blame, then fire him.....what I'm saying is don't fire the guy just for the sake of making a move. Only do so if you have a viable candidate available. Wouldn't you agree that that is not the case right now? As far as guys playing hard for him. When half the guys are not mentally in the game and continue to make the same mental mistakes over and over again, I just don't think Dusty has them playing hard for him, they don't seem to be prepared at all. You could be right....I don't know. I hope they give the guy a chance to get this team out of the hole they dug themselves. If they don't, all of your wishes will come true at the end of the year and Baker will not be retained. Who would you like to see them hire as manager assuming Dusty is let go? Davey Johnson, please. Is he currently out of the game? Anyone know what he does now? Just wondering.....

Has there been one post that said it was entirely Dusty's fault? Seems like you're arguing a point that no one else has even made. Yet, a majority of you are arguing he needs to be the guy fired right now? That sounds fair.

Fair enough, but you still didn't answer my question as to what makes you think Dusty has what it takes to turn this around? Or what has he shown you that you think he is a good manager? I don't have that answer. I do think he is a guy the players respect and will play hard for. His teams do have a history of playing well in the second half, although his recent Cubs' teams would indicate otherwise. I'm not a huge Dusty supporter. Do I think he deserves a chance to get this team out of their hole? Yes, I do. However, if the management really think he's to blame, then fire him.....what I'm saying is don't fire the guy just for the sake of making a move. Only do so if you have a viable candidate available. Wouldn't you agree that that is not the case right now? As far as guys playing hard for him. When half the guys are not mentally in the game and continue to make the same mental mistakes over and over again, I just don't think Dusty has them playing hard for him, they don't seem to be prepared at all. You could be right....I don't know. I hope they give the guy a chance to get this team out of the hole they dug themselves. If they don't, all of your wishes will come true at the end of the year and Baker will not be retained. Who would you like to see them hire as manager assuming Dusty is let go?

You don't think the players deserve any of this blame? Last time I checked, Baker or Hendry didn't hit, pitch, field or hustle. Last time I checked, Hendry was responsible for putting the players on the field, and Baker was brought in for the ability to "get the most out of his players". Agreed. If we're going to play the blame game I think there is a lot more to be placed on Hendry than Baker. For those criticizing Baker's lineups there's really not a whole lot you can piece together right now when you're working with a recently struggling Ramirez, Todd Walker and Michael Barrett as the heart of your lineup. Throw in heavily relying on essentially two rookies to boot. You wonder why Contreras threw 80% or so of his pitches for strikes yesterday. If I had to face that, I'd challenge these guys every pitch, too..... Well, one of those rookies is batting .290 something and the other isn't hurting the lineup as much as some of the overpriced vets. The point is, his horrible lineups date a lot further back than this year. What about last year when he refused to let Walker lead off and kept putting "the savior" Neifi Perez and his sub .300 OBP in the lead off spot, or the equally worse option of Corey Patterson who should have been hitting 7th or 8th? Also, I haven't seen one other poster on here absolve Hendry of his role in this, so I don't even know why he is pertinent to the conversation of whether or not Dusty should go. Hendry is very relevant to this discussion. You have to have the players to win. The best manager in the game couldn't win with players not performing, so Hendry is very much a part of this discussion. That being said, he does have questionable lineups and there are reasons to criticize, but I don't think the Cubs losing this year falls entirely on Dusty Baker's shoulders.

Fair enough, but you still didn't answer my question as to what makes you think Dusty has what it takes to turn this around? Or what has he shown you that you think he is a good manager? I don't have that answer. I do think he is a guy the players respect and will play hard for. His teams do have a history of playing well in the second half, although his recent Cubs' teams would indicate otherwise. I'm not a huge Dusty supporter. Do I think he deserves a chance to get this team out of their hole? Yes, I do. However, if the management really think he's to blame, then fire him.....what I'm saying is don't fire the guy just for the sake of making a move. Only do so if you have a viable candidate available.

You don't think the players deserve any of this blame? Last time I checked, Baker or Hendry didn't hit, pitch, field or hustle. Last time I checked, Hendry was responsible for putting the players on the field, and Baker was brought in for the ability to "get the most out of his players". Agreed. If we're going to play the blame game I think there is a lot more to be placed on Hendry than Baker. For those criticizing Baker's lineups there's really not a whole lot you can piece together right now when you're working with a recently struggling Ramirez, Todd Walker and Michael Barrett as the heart of your lineup. Throw in heavily relying on essentially two rookies to boot. You wonder why Contreras threw 80% or so of his pitches for strikes yesterday. If I had to face that, I'd challenge these guys every pitch, too.....

He had his chance. He had it in 2003, when the team melted down. He had it in 2004 when the team melted down. He had it in 2005 when the team stunk. He had it 3 weeks ago when the team stunk. Why not fire him now? He's a bad manager, has been for a while. You fire him now because the team is playing like crap and Dusty is a bad manager. What other reason do you need? Replace him with who then? If you have a better candidate the Cubs could get tomorrow, I'm all ears. For instance, if you would have fired Baker last year before the Marlins started talking to Girardi, I would have loved to see that. Say you get rid of Baker because it wasn't working and Girardi was your guy and you took it. Fine...but don't just fire someone and then bring in someone worse to do a job to please the complaining fans or media. It all goes to accountability. So if you sucked at your job and continually mismanaged those around you would your bosses say, well, because we have to pay you for the rest of the year, even though you are not providing results, we'll keep you around. The Cubs don't owe Dusty a thing (except the cash to buy out the rest of his contract, yet another example of Hendry bidding against himself and overpaying). They paid him well and now it is time to say good bye. Bring in an interim manager now and start targeting a manager for next year if you can't find a suitable candidate now. They hired Dusty Baker for a reason and he should be given this chance to change it. If he can't then get someone else to try, but let's not go through this joke of an interim manager routine. I'm hoping that Hendry and MacPhail are already planning for a worse case scenario if this year holds to form now and are looking at possible replacements. If they aren't/don't, then I will agree with everyone of you saying this management is incompetent. Why is the interim manager thing a joke? Most recently Jack McKeon took the Marlins to a world Chamionship in 2003 and got the full time job and look at what the Astro did after they fired Jimy Williams. What's to say the same thing can't happen to the Cubs? It is painfully obvious that Dusty is not the guy to get the job done so why wait to make the change? What are your reasons to keep Dusty on? What can you point to that says he is a good manager and can turn this thing around? If you're going to use recent history, you should also point out where the Astros were a year ago at this point and where they finished. They didn't fire Garner when things were going poorly and that turned out okay.

You don't think the players deserve any of this blame? Last time I checked, Baker or Hendry didn't hit, pitch, field or hustle.

He had his chance. He had it in 2003, when the team melted down. He had it in 2004 when the team melted down. He had it in 2005 when the team stunk. He had it 3 weeks ago when the team stunk. Why not fire him now? He's a bad manager, has been for a while. You fire him now because the team is playing like crap and Dusty is a bad manager. What other reason do you need?[/quote Replace him with who then? If you have a better candidate the Cubs could get tomorrow, I'm all ears. For instance, if you would have fired Baker last year before the Marlins started talking to Girardi, I would have loved to see that. Say you get rid of Baker because it wasn't working and Girardi was your guy and you took it. Fine...but don't just fire someone and then bring in someone worse to do a job to please the complaining fans or media. It all goes to accountability. So if you sucked at your job and continually mismanaged those around you would your bosses say, well, because we have to pay you for the rest of the year, even though you are not providing results, we'll keep you around. The Cubs don't owe Dusty a thing (except the cash to buy out the rest of his contract, yet another example of Hendry bidding against himself and overpaying). They paid him well and now it is time to say good bye. Bring in an interim manager now and start targeting a manager for next year if you can't find a suitable candidate now. They hired Dusty Baker for a reason and he should be given this chance to change it. If he can't then get someone else to try, but let's not go through this joke of an interim manager routine. I'm hoping that Hendry and MacPhail are already planning for a worse case scenario if this year holds to form now and are looking at possible replacements. If they aren't/don't, then I will agree with everyone of you saying this management is incompetent.

He had his chance. He had it in 2003, when the team melted down. He had it in 2004 when the team melted down. He had it in 2005 when the team stunk. He had it 3 weeks ago when the team stunk. Why not fire him now? He's a bad manager, has been for a while. You fire him now because the team is playing like crap and Dusty is a bad manager. What other reason do you need? Replace him with who then? If you have a better candidate the Cubs could get tomorrow, I'm all ears. For instance, if you would have fired Baker last year before the Marlins started talking to Girardi, I would have loved to see that. Say you get rid of Baker because it wasn't working and Girardi was your guy and you took it. Fine...but don't just fire someone and then bring in someone worse to do a job to please the complaining fans or media. Larry Deriker Davy Johnson Bobby Valentine Jim Riggleman But really we don't have to have the answers, we're fans. Hendry, MacPhail, and Dusty have to have the answers, that their job. Please tell me Derker and Riggleman are jokes....Davey Johnson and Bobby Valentine I could at least entertain, but the other two? I'd rather go through Kimm disaster after Baylor was fired to see Derker or Riggleman.

I don't think you know that. Be that as it may, if it were true then the Cubs shouldn't have signed him. I don't think anyone but Hendry would have given him that contract. Frankly, I'd rather just Keep Burnitz around for one year. You don't think St. Louis for one would take Jacque Jones over Encarnacion? Please. If we would have offered 1 year for $3-4 million he would have laughed at that offer and other teams would have grossly outbid that.

He had his chance. He had it in 2003, when the team melted down. He had it in 2004 when the team melted down. He had it in 2005 when the team stunk. He had it 3 weeks ago when the team stunk. Why not fire him now? He's a bad manager, has been for a while. You fire him now because the team is playing like crap and Dusty is a bad manager. What other reason do you need? Replace him with who then? If you have a better candidate the Cubs could get tomorrow, I'm all ears. For instance, if you would have fired Baker last year before the Marlins started talking to Girardi, I would have loved to see that. Say you get rid of Baker because it wasn't working and Girardi was your guy and you took it. Fine...but don't just fire someone and then bring in someone worse to do a job to please the complaining fans or media.

Actually, there were a lot of people that didn't want him to begin with truth be told. I'll admit I was ok with it at the time, but there are certainly many on here that can claim they were against the hiring before, not after the fact. Come on. No one is arguing that. No one. We want them fired because we don't think anyone, including Baker, can get this team to win this year. It's a crappy team built poorly and led poorly. We want them fired so we can win long term, not short term. And I think you'll get that at the END of the year. If Baker doesn't win this year, he's gone. There is no way this team finishes with 75 wins or so and Baker comes back. Why fire him now is my question. Give the guy a shot to get us out of this hole. If he doesn't....he's gone.

Complain about Hendry's signings, I think that's reasonable, but that's the catch-22 about being the GM for the Cubs and working in Chicago. We all want this to turn around overnight. Jones and Giles were the two best right fielders in free agency. No way, Giles was leaving SD, so Hendry was left with one option. Sign Jones or be crucified for "not addressing right field." If you're a team who desperately needs a closer, but you don't think anyone available are that impressive or they're asking for too much money and decide to do nothing, don't you think the fans would jump on you if you decided to sign nobody? Damned if you do...damned if you don't. But that was the problem, Hendry bid against himself for Jones. If he would have signed Jones to a 1 year deal for 3-4 million I think people would have still been disappointed but when he overpays and locks the guy up for 3 years it is asinine. And sure there were only 2 RF on the FA market but instead of overpaying with 3 young pitchers for Juan Pierre, maybe he should have used those assets to get a productive RF and I believe with that amount of pitching Hendry could have gotten a deal done for somebody. Instead he overpaid in dollars and prospects for two guys that have showed a downward trend over the last couple of years. These are arguments that have been made since the signing, not in hindsight. There is absolutely no way we get Jones for a 1 year deal worth $3-4 million. None. Let's say hypothetically we do use the 3 pitchers we dealt for Pierre to get a right fielder, who starts in center then....Hairston? I'm guessing they signed Jones to that deal out of necessity. They didn't feel Pie was ready or Hairston was good enough to start in center and a lead-off center fielder was top priority (with the bullpen). Hindsight is 20-20 but I felt last year it was a mistake to get rid of Patterson, but we did which left us extremely vulnerable and desperate for a right and center fielder both. Often times decisions out of necessity and desperation don't work out too well.

I think you assume to much with the Baker situation. All indications are from what we read in the newspapers, that Hendry is just waiting for the right opportunity to give Baker an extension. 4 wins in 19 games is apparently good enough. Who exactly has been held accountable so far? The Cubs are the 6th worst team in the majors. Other than a couple of bullpen guys being sent down, we have the same team that we started with. The players haven't been held responsible. Baker hasn't been held responsible. Hendry hasn't been held responsible. MacPhail hasn't been held responsible. And the Tribune obviously isn't being held responsible. Where exactly is someone being held accountable? Accountablility would be someone losing their job. In every normal workplace, if you are unable to perform your job adequately, someone who CAN do the job will be asked to step in and do it. That doesn't appear to be the case with the Cubs. People that are clearly unable to do the job are being allowed to continue to try and try and try, with no change in results. That's no accountability. Do they have someone right now who they think CAN do the job? Obviously not. It's not like they're holding on to Baker and Hendry for the hell of it or they're nice guys. Since the Tribune owns the Cubs, I think they're clear of accountability. I don't care what the fans think they deserve on the field, it's up to them to determine what they spend and how they spend it. MacPhail and Hendry aren't perfect and have made mistakes, but have also done plenty of positives, too. The bullpen additions have been very good and Jones has been pretty good, but Pierre has struggled. They tried to address or weaknesses and some have worked while others haven't. It doesn't help that right now they have about $30 million worth of payroll on the DL or not healthy. As I said, regarding Baker, the wins and losses will hold his fate. If they rebound this year and compete, he'll probably be back. If not, he won't. What do you want? Posters here complain about this guy sucks and that guy sucks. People make it sound so easy....I know, let's go get Cabrera to play left and Abreu to play right. Sure....okay. Are you for real? So, what should be done? Just go on and keep using the same old sorry excuses? I know there are a lot of injuries, and that is not Dusty's fault, but that still shouldn't let him skate for the poor fundamentals this team has displayed and some of his bonehead lineups. Hendry most definitely should be held accountable for assembling yet another team that was going to rely on oft injured players to miraculously make it through an entire season (not talking about Lee) with no back up plan (Im sorry, the signing of Neifi, Rusch, Mabry, et al.... does not constitute a plan) You make it seem like people just started criticising management becasue of the losing streak when in fact some of these issues have been raised on this message board dating back to 2003. Even when the Cubs were winning people realized Dusty was incompetent. My sincerest apologies...I wasn't on this board in 2003. I didn't realize one year after their postseason run everyone knew he was incompetent. The length of the Rusch and Neifi signing was dumb, but I thought signing both was fine. I personally liked the Mabry signing. Should we fire Hendry, MacPhail and Baker tomorrow? Will that make Jones instantly a better base-runner? Will that make Pierre get on base more often and Wood and Prior healthy?

Got picked not once, not twice, but three times. And at the time, although he was coming around, was not really a force in the lineup and also was during that stretch the Cubs faced a gaggle of lefthanders so I think the benching could have worked out ok (Hairston wouldn't have killed them for one game, plus they suck anyway and would probably lose with or without him) My only point is, this team sucks enough with the group that "deserves" to start. The last thing we need is to make an already weak lineup even weaker. If Jones can get a base hit that potentially could drive a runner home and then get picked off 2nd, I'll take that over an 0-fer from Bynum or Hairston. Both outcomes suck, I'm just going with the one that sucks slightly less. I agree with that 100%.

Complain about Hendry's signings, I think that's reasonable, but that's the catch-22 about being the GM for the Cubs and working in Chicago. We all want this to turn around overnight. Jones and Giles were the two best right fielders in free agency. No way, Giles was leaving SD, so Hendry was left with one option. Sign Jones or be crucified for "not addressing right field." If you're a team who desperately needs a closer, but you don't think anyone available are that impressive or they're asking for too much money and decide to do nothing, don't you think the fans would jump on you if you decided to sign nobody? Damned if you do...damned if you don't.

I think you assume to much with the Baker situation. All indications are from what we read in the newspapers, that Hendry is just waiting for the right opportunity to give Baker an extension. 4 wins in 19 games is apparently good enough. Who exactly has been held accountable so far? The Cubs are the 6th worst team in the majors. Other than a couple of bullpen guys being sent down, we have the same team that we started with. The players haven't been held responsible. Baker hasn't been held responsible. Hendry hasn't been held responsible. MacPhail hasn't been held responsible. And the Tribune obviously isn't being held responsible. Where exactly is someone being held accountable? Accountablility would be someone losing their job. In every normal workplace, if you are unable to perform your job adequately, someone who CAN do the job will be asked to step in and do it. That doesn't appear to be the case with the Cubs. People that are clearly unable to do the job are being allowed to continue to try and try and try, with no change in results. That's no accountability. Do they have someone right now who they think CAN do the job? Obviously not. It's not like they're holding on to Baker and Hendry for the hell of it or they're nice guys. Since the Tribune owns the Cubs, I think they're clear of accountability. I don't care what the fans think they deserve on the field, it's up to them to determine what they spend and how they spend it. MacPhail and Hendry aren't perfect and have made mistakes, but have also done plenty of positives, too. The bullpen additions have been very good and Jones has been pretty good, but Pierre has struggled. They tried to address or weaknesses and some have worked while others haven't. It doesn't help that right now they have about $30 million worth of payroll on the DL or not healthy. As I said, regarding Baker, the wins and losses will hold his fate. If they rebound this year and compete, he'll probably be back. If not, he won't. What do you want? Posters here complain about this guy sucks and that guy sucks. People make it sound so easy....I know, let's go get Cabrera to play left and Abreu to play right. Sure....okay.

You gotta work with the information you have man. Quotes and the product in front of us is what we've got. Do you see any evidence that contradicts the "no accountability" theory? Anything? Maybe there is things going on behind closed doors. But we can't base opinions on maybes. Don't you think we've had enough "maybes" as Cubs fans? In your opinion, what would constitute no accountability? Should they bench Jacque Jones for a week next time he makes a base-running error? Should the Cubs have benched bench Pierre, Ramirez and Zambrano for slow starts? The Baker situation will take care of itself. If they manage to rebound this year and make a run, he'll be back. If not, he won't. That simple. To me, that's accountability. Firing Baker tomorrow does absolutely nothing. If you make a change, do it for the right reasons, not just for the sake of making a change. The right reasons? How about a terrible start to 2006, a fade in 2004, and less then medicore finsh in 2005? And that is just for starters. I really don't understand your position at all. Just read the daily press clippings. My point is this, Jacque Jones makes a base-running error and people go crazy saying there is no accountability on this team and it starts from MacPhail. What the hell is Baker supposed to do? Bench him for a month? Who in the world would we start in his place, Bynum? I'm going to go out on a limb and say Baker had a candid discussion with Jones about base-running and keeping his head in the game. If you screw up at your job, does your boss yell at you and put you down in front of the entire company and put it in the monthly newsletter or would he take you aside and say this can not happen anymore and we expect more out of you? As far as Baker, if you have a better candidate on your doorstep...fine, fire him tomorrow. However, you shouldn't fire a guy just for the sake of firing someone. I love how fans just say with no real thought, "fire him now" or "bench him now." Hire who in his place? Start who in his place? Jones starts and will start in RF because he's the best we got. We're going to have to take the good with the bad because we have no other legitimate option. The same can be said for Baker as manager right now.

You gotta work with the information you have man. Quotes and the product in front of us is what we've got. Do you see any evidence that contradicts the "no accountability" theory? Anything? Maybe there is things going on behind closed doors. But we can't base opinions on maybes. Don't you think we've had enough "maybes" as Cubs fans? In your opinion, what would constitute no accountability? Should they bench Jacque Jones for a week next time he makes a base-running error? Should the Cubs have benched bench Pierre, Ramirez and Zambrano for slow starts? The Baker situation will take care of itself. If they manage to rebound this year and make a run, he'll be back. If not, he won't. That simple. To me, that's accountability. Firing Baker tomorrow does absolutely nothing. If you make a change, do it for the right reasons, not just for the sake of making a change.

Yes, because Cuban would instantly bring his "talents" to Chicago which would equate in a world series. Can he keep Wood and Prior's shoulders intact and healthy? Can he fuse Lee's broken wrist back in 24 hours with no recovery time? If so, I'm all for hoping he buys the Cubs. Seriously, what would Cuban bring other than an arrogant owner with a mouth as big as his wallet?

MacPhail hates to win and you're right, he doesn't want to improve this team at all. How perceptive.

This "no accountability" thing you guys keep bringing up is getting ridiculous. Hendry said you can't put ALL of the blame on the manager. That's a huge difference than not putting any blame on Dusty. Hendry also said his conversations with Baker are private and will remain that way. You have absolutely no idea what Hendry has or has not said to Baker about the team this year. This rant people are going on now about accountability is getting real old. Not one of you have any idea what is or is not being said behind closed doors. I'm not claiming I do, but you seem to take one quote, read into it the wrong way and build your own conclusions.