Exile on Waveland

They evidently can't handle presses. IU's press pretty much destroyed them late in that game--and IU isn't a pressing team (of course, one wonders why the press wasn't used more that game, but I digress). They're a lot closer to a bubble team than many think right now. VCU is a quality team, though. This is more your forte than mine, but wins over Indiana and Gonzaga pretty much have to be trump cards, right? (Add to that Marquette and North Carolina.) But since beating Gonzaga the only team they've beaten worth a damn is Temple (6-5 since beating Gonzaga).

E has such an...interesting resume. It is pretty awesome, isn't it?

They evidently can't handle presses. IU's press pretty much destroyed them late in that game--and IU isn't a pressing team (of course, one wonders why the press wasn't used more that game, but I digress).

Lyle had 41 points, 21 rebounds and six assists last night in sectional semifinal win. I keep reading we lead for him. I hope Groce can land him. Would have liked to have seen that. Maybe when they make their way closer to this area; I went to the Warren Central sectional (Trey Lyles, Collin Hartman, Jalen Coleman).

Lyle had 41 points, 21 rebounds and six assists last night in sectional semifinal win.

THIS close to Illinois having the same. Illinois' resume is really good (albeit a little confusing). Will be an interesting test-case for seeding, I think.

Indiana: "3-0 against No. 1 seeds." It's a thing.

Uh oh. Typical Michigan fan. Not giving any credit to the winless Big Ten team. Or something.

Michigan: definitely not in a slump.

I mean, not necessarily start in the NBDL, but he should score some solid bench minutes. Who cares that IU got Zeller, the Zeller's aren't good at college basketball; Zeller won't make IU a tournament team; there's no guarantee Zeller will be better than Pritchard/Capobianco/Elston. Remember when you said I was being too cavalier about losing Matt Carlino (a player I had seen in person dozens of times)? Seriously, your posts about IU are hilariously, embarrassingly awful and consistently wrong. It's why I know you're just trolling when posting about IU.

NBA teams aren't busting down doors to draft 6-0 point guards who can't shoot. He's also about 5'10" He has consistently been measured as 6-foot tall in shoes at camps/tournaments, making him about 5-foot-11 without shoes. Regardless, that is not a preventative measure to play in the NBA. I mean, a 5-foot-9 player, who isn't even a point guard, recently played for the NBA team you root for, and currently plays for the team most this board roots for.

Then I cannot understand why this argument ever started; that's all I ever said.

If Ferrell can't even surpass Jonny Flynn, a guy who isn't even in the league anymore, that might not bode well for his future prospects. At the end of the day, he's shooting 37 percent from the floor. Take the top 18 or so point guards in the league by PER (the ones who went to college here and Derrick Rose). All of them cracked 40. A few of them were worse than Ferrell from beyond the arc (Conley, Sessions, Rondo, Jack, Holiday, Evans, Walker) but they could all score off the bat. Jonny Flynn was the sixth pick in the draft and played three years in the NBA. He would unequivocally meet my qualification of "play" in the NBA. (Further, Flynn had a solid rookie campaign, being named second team all-rookie, but had surgery that summer and was never the same.) Also, I have no idea why you're comparing him to the "top 18 or so point guards" in the NBA. That's not the criterion anyone is talking about; Ferrell's size limitations will almost surely prevent him from ever being a starter in the NBA (or, thus, a top-18 point guard). Your family of strawmen are going to need a strawhouse pretty soon. That said, obviously, Ferrell will have to shoot better. No one is questioning that; basically every player in college has something that needs to improve to become an NBA player. So we have to project what players will be able to improve on their weaknesses--especially freshmen--and I've made my case that Ferrell will shoot better in the future (he's already shooting better in the Big Ten). Ferrell's (outside) shooting isn't actually the biggest culprit in his shooting percentage, it's his subpar finishing around the basket. That was an issue in high school and AAU. It projects to be a bigger issue moving forward than his perimeter shooting, which has always been more than fine, excepting this non-conference season.

All three teams are good, but I'd bet a hefty sum on 'everyone else' right now. Those are my three favorites, but, I agree, I'd bet the field.

NBA teams aren't busting down doors to draft 6-0 point guards who can't shoot. And nobody said he was a lottery pick. But there's a pretty good chance he gets drafted as a former McD AA, likely 4-year starter including as a freshman on the team that has been #1 most of the year. Sounds like dee brown, Aaron miles, Jason Gardner, etc. Might get drafted, but unless he really improves his shot he won't stick. I suppose I need to stress this again: I chose my words carefully in stating that Ferrell would play in the NBA. Not be an NBA star, not a starter, or even a high draft pick. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that hyperbole set in; I'm sure next year it will be "IU fans think Ferrell will be the No. 1 overall pick lolz." That said, I don't think it's even remotely outside of the realm of possibilities that he sticks in the NBA and I do expect him to be drafted. He'll have to shoot better than he has this year obviously; however, this issue has mostly been overblown. He's shot better in the Big Ten and has a history of good shooting. His form is also very good (when it is consistent, which it wasn't earlier in the season). What issues he is having here are correctable without an overhaul of his form, which is important (I mentioned the same last year about Oladipo, and, viola). Second, focusing on the shooting obscures what has been a very good season, comparable to what I would consider to be similar-ish point guards (size and style) when they were freshmen: Ty Lawson -- 116.0 Johnny Flynn -- 112.9 Yogi Ferrell -- 107.2 Trey Burke -- 105.3 Darren Collison is similar in size, though not really style, and was at 90.8 as a freshman. Other dissimilar players include Avery Bradley was at 104.0 and a first-round draft pick after his freshman year (though he has a couple inches on Ferrell), and Kemba Walker, who is a nudge taller but not a point guard, who was below Ferrell's current rating as a freshman and sophomore.

He's skilled (and smart) enough that he's not likely to ever drop out of the lottery/top-10. But few would consider him an option at the top of the draft/top-5 at this point. He has the same physical limitations he has always had--he's slight and short-armed--coupled with a disappointing lack of aggressiveness and physicalness. He also has failed to develop much of a post game and has not shown the ability to make jumpers--which is imperative (he did so in high school more, but he's looked awful on set shots in college). I think there's still a good chance he's a solid NBA starter, even on good teams, but that's not what teams are looking for at the very top of the draft (none of this is to say he hasn't been good this year, he is stIll leading Pomeroy's player of the year race). Frankly, his draft position this year is now more "accurate."

No. Search function doesn't either. There's mocking of Oladipo in both this thread and last year's thread (oh yeah he's Wade, Jordan, of course he gets star calls, etc.). Also the "what if Oladipo comes back" posts. It was smack and I that discussed Oladipo's draft prospects earlier, though. As for Ferrell, I'm honestly pretty surprised this is a controversial opinion. He's a good all-around player, with great pedigree, having a comparable freshman season efficiency-wise to some really good point guards, has multiple years to improve, and NBA scouts already have had an eye on him. He's obviously not ready for the league now, but he also pretty obviously has the skill set to get to that point.

That's going to hurt the Draft stock Cody Zeller went 2-9 and was awful. Guess he's not an NBA player. It's Zeller's ballhandling, not his shooting that is going to make him a pro. Have to admit, that was good.

IU got beat up inside again. They haven't responded well this year to any physical play inside; it's the main thing that cost them the Butler game (and was a factor in the Wisconsin game too). No reason to expect that to change. I'll be hoping to avoid physical half-court teams in the tournament, especially those that also have stretch-fives.

That's going to hurt the Draft stock Cody Zeller went 2-9 and was awful. Guess he's not an NBA player. Remember when we played this game with Victor Oladipo? That was fun.

Yes, I caught that.

What Raw said--and Raw and I don't exactly see eye to eye--was, I quote, "even Watford and Zeller can handle if necessary." I think that stops far short of reading that Zeller can play point guard against a press.

That's not going to get him a lot of minutes in the NBA. When are you building a strawhouse for all your strawmen to live in?

Oladipo can do about anything, but ball handling isnt a strength from what i've seen. Great win tonight for SLU. Beating Butler will be the road win they lacked to be a top 15-20 team. Basically a defensive team without any real stars. You're talking to a guy who just referenced Zeller and Watford when challenged on ball handling. I'll assume you're just trolling, otherwise your tour de force of wrongness continues. Watford and Zeller can both be useful pieces in a press-breaker offense. It's a pretty common tactic to use big men as secondary ball-handlers to break a press, because they often have better matchups than the guards (who will be handling against guards specifically recruited to play this style of defense). IU has, in fact, used Watford in this secondary role, with solid success. Zeller, while obviously no one's idea of a primary ball-handler, can be an "escape route" (and he did play guard for awhile in high school). Playing against forty minutes of press, there will be more than a few possessions when the press-breaker offense collapses. In such cases, Zeller offers an escape route that typical fives do not--compare to say, Derrick Nix, where all would be lost if he's caught with the ball and the ten second count running out. This may only happen a couple times a game, but a couple of saved turnovers may be outcome-dispositive. The places to attack IU in a press are Jordan Hulls and Remy Abell. Hulls has an overwhelming tendency to pick the ball up/lose his dribble when pressured, creating trapping situations, and he's too short to see over trappers, resulting in turnovers/timeouts. VCU took great advantage of this last year, and Hulls had five turnovers in that game (a fortunately low number, in fact, from IU's perspective from the way the game played out). I think this also served to wear him down overall, as he shot only 2-7 from the field. Abell is a decent-ish ball-handler, but puts his head down while dribbling, has poor court vision, and thus is susceptible to traps and/or charges (two turnovers in only sixteen minutes against VCU).

Oh. He's certainly not remotely ready to be an NBA point guard (nor do I think he ever will be). His size is not necessarily abnormal for two-guards, when coupled with his length and athleticism. But it wouldn't shock me if he merely settled into a Tony Allen-esque career.