Exile on Waveland

I'm not sold Michigan State will go unscatched with early entries (maybe more Payne than Harris, though). If they do, I'll put Kentucky No. 1 and Michigan State No. 2.

We'll see about that. As snood said, this isn't unique to IU. If Illinois has the chance, I'm pretty darn certain they'll do the same. That's the way college athletics go now.

1. I did not count the first off-season when Crean took the IU job because in a previous conversation you said that did not count as a real off-season. Regardless, I think we both know those players leaving were a completely different situation. You don't think Crean wanted Jordan Crawford and Armon Bassett to stick around? They, uh, might have played a little bit on that 6-25 team. Just a bit, ya think? 2. Yes, absolutely. I'm certain that Roth (correctly) believed it was in his best interests to play the good soldier and reap the benefits of being a former IU player in Indiana. I'm certain he wishes he could have played a fifth year (was that deserved? I don't know, maybe.). But that quote/link rebuts the claims about Roth complaining, which is why I mentioned it. 3. I counted four Illinois transfers by using this: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/22007798/transfer-list-first-edition. I'm not sure I've heard of those players besides Mike Shaw and perhaps there's a nuance that I'm missing (just because Illinois fans wear tinfoil hats as they obsess over the program to their east, doesn't mean IU fans do the same). I don't know who Illinois' thirteenth man is.

well, Billy should have given more consideration to the very real possibility of his coach being canned or of leaving for another job. Just one part of the decision-making process. Of course Johnny could always be considered culpable for being a terrible judge of character himself, but his coach blatantly misled in him in selling him what he thought was a dream. Johnny's coach is a pathological scumbag that can never be trusted and will do the same thing over and over and over at the same school. The coach that cuts Billy only does so once or twice, whenever he moves. Once or twice, huh? Interesting. In Groce's first (full) off-season as coach, Illinois already has had four players transfer. In Crean's five (full) off-seasons, so far Indiana has had four transfers (five if you want to count Matt Roth; heck, six if you want to count Ron Patterson). So which program is doing a worse job fulfilling its obligations to student-athletes? How many of our guys have publically bitched about getting ran off? Hell even Dan Dakich called you guys out on Matt Roth. Dakich attempts to rile up IU fans in order to increase ratings. It's his schtick. Regardless, Roth is a unique situation. Roth was on scholarship at IU for four years, earned a bachelor's and a master's degree for free, and participated in senior night festivities at the end of his fourth year. He, however, could have earned an extra year as a medical redshirt because he only played two games his sophomore season. Was this fair/what duty does a program have to players beyond their fourth year? I'm not really sure; I'm of two minds. Part of me thinks a player should be able to continue playing as long as he can (not their fault they were injured); the other part thinks four years is a full commitment and it could be a hardship scholarship-wise if the injury happened a senior year (coaches recruit players to replace their seniors). As for the complaints, here is Matt Roth: (see http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/matt-roth-defends-tom-crean-decision-not-renew-143015529--ncaab.html). And even after Roth's departure, at least as of last year, he was coaching at Crean's camps and appearing at a fundraiser in Fort Wayne with Crean (http://hoosierhoopla.blogspot.com/2012/08/on-matt-roth-creans-team-outlook-btn-vs.html). Patterson complained, I suppose, before the IU-Syracuse game, but Patterson has no one to blame but himself. Further, if player complaints are dispositive of unfair treatment, then I guess Capobianco wasn't "Creaned" since he has not complained.

well, Billy should have given more consideration to the very real possibility of his coach being canned or of leaving for another job. Just one part of the decision-making process. Of course Johnny could always be considered culpable for being a terrible judge of character himself, but his coach blatantly misled in him in selling him what he thought was a dream. Johnny's coach is a pathological scumbag that can never be trusted and will do the same thing over and over and over at the same school. The coach that cuts Billy only does so once or twice, whenever he moves. Once or twice, huh? Interesting. In Groce's first (full) off-season as coach, Illinois already has had four players transfer. In Crean's five (full) off-seasons, so far Indiana has had four transfers (five if you want to count Matt Roth; heck, six if you want to count Ron Patterson). So which program is doing a worse job fulfilling its obligations to student-athletes?

ok, being Creaned is like asking your safety to prom because you don't want to be a loser and sit home, and then dumping them to go with someone else you think is better. being Groce'd out is like dumping your fiance from an arranged marriage because you want someone of your choosing. it's not hard to understand. "Hey Billy, I know you were recruited to play at this university by another coach, but you should transfer so I can get my own future recruits in." "Hey Johnny, I know you were recruited to play at this university by me, but you should transfer so I can get my own current recruits in." Man, I bet Billy is glad he didn't end up like that sucker Johnny.

Creamed, IMO. If he's being creamed at IU, I can't say as I'd blame him. Anyway, why would he do that? Maybe as an insufferable douche, he feels compelled to migrate to his natural habitat. I think it's safe to say he won't be doing it.

Creaned, IMO.

Losing Hollowell would be a massive blow.

"The same one that selects Yogi Ferrell." Beat you to it.

And two players are already (well, in about an hour and a half, technically) off to the NBA as early-entries (as they always were going to be). It would have been foolish for any coach not to prepare for that inevitability. That means IU is currently over-signed by one (which is the number the Big Ten allows for). Normal transfer attrition rate for Division One programs is, approximately, one. According to you, draftexpress had him as the 21st pick in the 2nd round shortly after you signed your 16th player. Your point is . . . what, exactly? That players never leave when they're second round picks? Players never leave after they've graduated so they can get on with making money (even if overseas)? Players never make mistakes when leaving early? Oladipo always planned on leaving after this season -- go check my posts from before last season started (and he broke out), where I stated this exact same thing. As an aside, what lottery team will be selecting Phil Pressey? B.J. Young? Adonis Thomas? Russ Smith? C.J. Aiken? And on and on and, inevitably, on.

Because this issue has mainly been fabricated in the minds of Purdue/Illinois fans. Illinois, you know, the program that just had how many players transfer? how many of those kids were groce's? It's always easy to rationalize when it's the program you root for, isn't it? so it's the same thing, then? ok. So be it. I'm fine with that. Every player that leaves IU was "Creaned." Every player that leaves Purdue was "Painted." Every player that leaves Illinois is "Groced." In the end, we'll count up how many players have left, and I suspect the numbers will be nearly identical. Or, if you prefer, any player that leaves any school left for "more playing time," or whatever euphemism you prefer. The (fanatic) problem is that application has not been consistent, with different rules applying to Indiana, and Indiana alone.

Because this issue has mainly been fabricated in the minds of Purdue/Illinois fans. Illinois, you know, the program that just had how many players transfer? It's not as if Illinois overcommitted on scholarships so that they had to find creative ways to get rid of kids. This case, it just sounds like the kids wanted to play more than they were at Illinois, and Groce was up front about things and told them they weren't going to play much there. This is just more rationalizing. Players leave Illinois because they want to play more . . . players leave IU because IU's coach is a meanie (and, of course, was not up front and did not tell players they weren't going to play much there because, well, what exactly? Because Illinois fans that hate IU will it so?). Players that have left IU for more playing time/to be closer to home have been used by this board, ad nauseam, to prove that "Creaning" exists. Meanwhile, only one such player left when there was a scholarship crunch (Capobianco). That player was "Creaned"; sure, there's little way around that. (The only other player that has left when IU was under a scholarship crunch was Ron Patterson. Patterson was admitted to the university on a contingency basis, failed to make his grades, and violated the honor code (the honor code, by the way, prohibits cheating). Moreover, he ended up at Syracuse. If this was just a Machiavellian "Creaning" why not "Crean," say, Maurice Creek or Peter Jurkin or Austin Etherington or Remy Abell? Would any of those players have ended up at a program of Syracuse's ilk? Or even at a BCS program?) You keep moving the goalposts here. We're not the ones rationalizing why our players transferred. Huh? I'm the one moving the goalposts? You, bukie, delineated what you believe is improper: "overcommitt[ing] on scholarships so that they had to find creative ways to get rid of kids." I responded, directly, to that: it happened to Capobianco. It is, and was, regrettable. But it has not been, to this point, any sort of epidemic as oft portrayed. And Illinois fans absolutely are rationalizing why players left: (1) they weren't Groce recruits originally; (2) they wanted more playing time; or (3) Groce was up-front about things. Those things are, inarguably, rationalizations. They define rationalizations. (Edit: which is fine becuase transfers happen. Sometimes good players transfer, but, by rule, mainly players that aren't playing transfer. It's the way of college sports. Acknowledgement of this is the exact purpose of the over-sign rule.)

And two players are already (well, in about an hour and a half, technically) off to the NBA as early-entries (as they always were going to be). It would have been foolish for any coach not to prepare for that inevitability. That means IU is currently over-signed by one (which is the number the Big Ten allows for). Normal transfer attrition rate for Division One programs is, approximately, one.

First of all, we're talking about a rumor. Second, it's quite possible a player leaves for "playing time" (like they do at Illinois, wink wink). Third, similar to Patterson, why Remy Abell? Why not Maurice Creek or Peter Jurkin or Austin Etherington? Losing Abell would be a blow to next year's team, and the following year's team. It would not be a loss to be celebrated (just as losing Patterson really hurt -- he would be a starter next year).

Because this issue has mainly been fabricated in the minds of Purdue/Illinois fans. Illinois, you know, the program that just had how many players transfer? how many of those kids were groce's? It's always easy to rationalize when it's the program you root for, isn't it? You really don't see the difference between over committing players you recruit, knowing that you'll almost certainly have to force them out later, and a new coach telling players the previous coach recruited that they won't get much playing time in his system and them transferring? Really? Even if Groce didn't play these kids just because he didn't want them, it's much less disingenuous than recruiting kids and then doing it to them. Neither scenario is what you would call ideal, but one is decidedly worse then the other. I don't think Illini fans are the ones rationalizing here. Forcing players out is the harm here. There are degrees -- and forcing players out you recruited is probably worse than players you did not recruit -- but the harm is the forcing out of players. I'm absolutely, vehemently against oversigning (sans for obvious early-entry candidates) and the forcing out of such players. Unequivocally. I don't like what happened to Capobianco. I think Crean is playing with fire. However, it has happened exactly one time. One time is not an epidemic, it's next to nothing.

Because this issue has mainly been fabricated in the minds of Purdue/Illinois fans. Illinois, you know, the program that just had how many players transfer? It's not as if Illinois overcommitted on scholarships so that they had to find creative ways to get rid of kids. This case, it just sounds like the kids wanted to play more than they were at Illinois, and Groce was up front about things and told them they weren't going to play much there. This is just more rationalizing. Players leave Illinois because they want to play more . . . players leave IU because IU's coach is a meanie (and, of course, was not up front and did not tell players they weren't going to play much there because, well, what exactly? Because Illinois fans that hate IU will it so?). Players that have left IU for more playing time/to be closer to home have been used by this board, ad nauseam, to prove that "Creaning" exists. Meanwhile, only one such player left when there was a scholarship crunch (Capobianco). That player was "Creaned"; sure, there's little way around that. (The only other player that has left when IU was under a scholarship crunch was Ron Patterson. Patterson was admitted to the university on a contingency basis, failed to make his grades, and violated the honor code (the honor code, by the way, prohibits cheating). Moreover, he ended up at Syracuse. If this was just a Machiavellian "Creaning" why not "Crean," say, Maurice Creek or Peter Jurkin or Austin Etherington or Remy Abell? Would any of those players have ended up at a program of Syracuse's ilk? Or even at a BCS program?)

Because this issue has mainly been fabricated in the minds of Purdue/Illinois fans. Illinois, you know, the program that just had how many players transfer? how many of those kids were groce's? It's always easy to rationalize when it's the program you root for, isn't it?

Because this issue has mainly been fabricated in the minds of Purdue/Illinois fans. Illinois, you know, the program that just had how many players transfer?

We will see. Beilein has taken less talented Michigan teams to the tourney. I guess I shouldn't say anything with certainty since they'd be losing almost the entire core team from this year but I believe in Beilein as a coach and Michigan certainly wouldn't be short on talent. You mean the two teams that lost fourteen games apiece and that were Nos. 8 and 10 seeds? That ain't top-25. That listed team above may make the tournament, but top-25 would be damn near amazing. Put another way: IU is going to start two 5-stars, two 4-stars, and the Big Ten's reigning sixth man of the year (who will be a senior) and they're only ranked No. 19 in that poll. And I'll be thrilled if they turn out to be a legit top-25 team.

Is Spike going pro also? As a MSU fan I will relish in little brother having one year of MSU level of success:) If Michigan loses all those players and Spike Albrecht is starting, I feel even more comfortable saying they won't be a top-25 team.

Beilein would have a lot of work to do to make Derrick Walton Zak Irvin Nick Stauskas Mark Donnal/Jon Horford/Caris Levert (small ball?) Jordan Morgan a top-25 team next year. A lot of work.

Expecting 3 4*s to come in and fill the void for Burke, Hardaway, and Robinson is pretty ambitious. And given how deep next year's class is, McGary has to strongly consider leaving. He's old for a FR, and his stock may not get much higher. I think it will be a tough season for both our teams next year. Even with a lot of talent coming in, we're both replacing a ton of firepower. You simply cannot "expect" or count on 4-stars for anything their freshmen year. They might be really good, they might warm the bench. It's a crap-shoot. They're generally likely to be productive players over their careers (recruiting rankings do prove to be pretty accurate) and you'll build a heck of a program by consistently recruiting 4-stars. You just don't know what you're going to get right away; that said, I'm pretty certain Zak Irvin will be productive next year. You can really only count on 5-stars to be productive their first year; and, even then, it might sometimes only extend to the upper-tier/half of 5-stars (especially with centers).

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9147684/very-early-top-25-2013-14-season-ncaa-men-college-basketball For what that's worth.

I don't have an issue with that. You bite on a pump fake, you deserve negative consequences. You should. If the offensive guy leans into the defender, that should never, ever be called a foul. If the the defender stays vertical, you're rewarding the offensive guy for initiating contact. It's a crap play and awful officiating when it gets called. Nope, still don't. Don't bite on a pumpfake. Lol, what was described is a charge. You as a defender have the right to jump up vertically. This. Jumping to defend is, well, defense.