Satch80

"I don't know if anyone watched these games, but Patterson has being doing fine, minus the two baserunning gaffes. " I watch every game and Corey is most certainly not doing fine. In the last two days he has come up with the bases loaded twice with absolutely no plan of approach. He is swinging at the first pitch regardless of where it is. He is not a MLB caliber player at this time with his poor baserunning and complete lack of strike zone recognition. I am not using him as a scapegoat, there are several liabilities on this team, but Corey is definitely one of them.

This game was a pretty typical Cubs game when they don't bash the HR.. Shakey defense, the error by Walker cost a run, .The Cubs just kept pulling the sinker over and over to ground out instead of waiting for a pitch up that they could drive. So the pitcher sailed through with a low pitch count. No clutch hitting. Corey failing and flailing in critical situations. No aggressive plays like a squeeze or hit and run .Just no pressure on the opponents. Same old stuff. Typical Cubs losing effort. Hopefully tomorrow is better.

Somewhere I read an article recently that addressed this subject, I think by Steve Phillips the former GM of the Mets. The upper office frowns on lots of uninjured $$$ sitting on the bench because it makes the signings look bad. OK if replacing injured $$$ players. Guess there's corporate politics in baseball like everywhere else.

If Moneyball is about finding whatever is undervalued then Moneyball has no absolute philosophy about how to build a ball club. One year OBP is undervalued so we load up on guys with disciplined strike zones. One year defense is undervalued so we sign gold glove caliber players with only average plate discipline. One year speed is undervalued so we get some guys who can steal and hit and run but are only average defensively. My point is we are arguing about what is ideal when there is no ideal if one builds a team dependent upon the best available skills at reduced prices. Basically, that's Moneyball.

I think he'll get an incentive laden contract with some AL team. I think he'll play next year. I also think he'll work his a$$ off during the off season to get in shape. His ego will motivate him to go for 600 and go out looking better than this season.

Not here to argue about Aram. Just stating the obvious. 1. He's a great offensive force 2. He is often injured. 3. He came over from Pittsburg with rumblings of not hustling and poor defense. At times, we have seen the same things here. 4.I think most agree that mental errors are due to a lack of focus and concentration. Aram has made some mental errors. 5. His body looks soft, he even has a slight double chin. Maybe he doesn't work/train much in the off season. 6. He has the ability to be one of the best 3B of all time.

"The problem is that 3/4 isn't good enough. The Cubs need to play .800 ball in order to win the 93-95 games it's going to take to win the WC. " I don't think it will take that much. Houston, the leader is playing at an 88 win pace right now. They are 4-6 in their last 10 games, and have been shut out 3 times. This team has had trouble scoring all season and when Berkman and Ensberg aren't hitting they don't score. Point is, even with their pitching this team is also flawed and no lock to win the WC. And we have 10 games remaining with them to do some damage plus they still have a series with WC contenders Fla and Phil. WC contender Phil, for exp, has 10 games left with Wash, 6 with the Mets and 6 with Fla. Basically the NL East WC contenders get to cannibalize themself, and we also have one more series against Fla to take them down. Bottom line, these are all flawed teams, teams that run hot and cold just like us. There's no reason to expect any of them to play lights out for the final 6 weeks. Because of the set-up where the WC contenders are playing each other in the east and 10 games left with Houston, we have an excellent chance to be there at the end if we play winning baseball. I would not be surprised if 88-89 took the WC unless we absolutely collapse against Houston or one of the NL east teams takes everyone down. So go Cubs! Movin' on up...

The poor fundamentals, sloppy defense and lack of focus is a reflection of the manager. Dusty seems to believe in players policing themselves. Well, when it doesn't happen, the manager needs to hold them accountable. It really doesn't matter the style of the manager, just the substance. That's what translates into results. Tolerating the caliber of play we have witnessed over and over is inexcusable . The fact that no one has been benched for failing to hustle or keep their head in the game is implied tolerance. And the players know this. There are certainly teams he could manage well. In SF he had essentially a veteran team with old school leadership and an experienced pitching staff. His personality and people skills were ideal for this situation. Such is not the case with the Cubs. Experienced players such as Burnitz and Aram are not leaders and Aram ( even with injuries) is part of the perception of a non hustling team. If Nomar had played full season it might have helped. Bottom line, Dusty is not a good fit for this team. If he continues on, Hendry has to factor in Dusty's shortcomings when constructing the 2006 Cubs otherwise we'll be looking at a rerun.

I wish I could believe that his bat makes up for his defensive liabilities but I can't. I think of the "strong defense up the middle" motto which most winning teams seem to have and I look at the Cubs in that department and they come up very short. And not only at catcher. St Louis values offense as much as any team yet when it comes to the catcher position they are willing to sacrifice offense for good defense. I have watched every Cub game (painful as it was) they are all recorded and I have rerun lots of the Barrett plays to be sure they didn't just look bad in real time. Yes, there were some occasions when he wouldn't have gotten the runner at 2nd even if his throw was good and there were a few occasions where the throw was wide of the plate. But I can assure you that he missed throws at 2nd, plays at the plate and allowed balls to get by far...far too many times. I hope he can improve his defense and keeps working on it because right now, it is definitely a liability. Wish we could have it all.

Barrett is defensively challenged. I wish it weren't so because I love his bat and I like him but he rarely makes a play at the plate, doesn't block balls well ( advancing runners), throws accurately about once in five to 2nd base., doesn't take a leadership role in directing pitchers on defense and doesn't seem to call games well. I think if your bread and butter is a young, power pitching staff you're better off with a ctacher who excels in handling pitchers and defense.

Aram seems soft, fragile, not properly conditioned. Sometimes he seems unfocused and plain lazy. He's a terrific hitter, no question, very clutch, but he needs to raise his game to a truly elite level because he has the ability. Someone that he believes needs to grab his ear and remind him of what he can be before he loses the respect of his peers and others in baseball who definitely notice these things.

I agree that Dusty and Hendry are not on the same page. I believe that Hendry promoted Cedeno and Murton during their hot streaks intending them to play and spark the team but Dusty didn't follow through. But I also agree that a GM can't tell a manager who to play or that GM would never be able to hire another quality manager. Hendry is smart, a great deal maker and for the most part has avoided deadly contracts. But he's not always smart about building a team. If you look at St Louis, a very good model within our payroll, every good bat they brought in from outside their own system also carried a good ( usually gold) glove. Their WS 2005 team was built bringing in at some point Edmonds ( gold glove), Matheny ( gold glove) Renteria ( gold glove) Walker ( gold glove) Rolen ( gold glove). They hit the ball great ( except Matheny) but also caught the ball great. Contrast that with players Hendry has brought in . Barrett, Walker, Nomar, Aramis, Lawton. All average to below average on defense. I also question the player mix. Some players need to be high OBP and contact hitters to offset the free swinging power hitters. We simply can't have all HR types with no table setters or we will go into prolonged slumps like last year and this year. But the bottom line this year has been the inconsistent pitching. Teams just can't overcome that very well. I'm reminded of the 2003 Cardinals who's bullpen blew game after game and pitchers like Tomko, Simo and Anderson imploded game after game. Even their imposing lineup couldn't overcome that. The Cub's bullpen has blown a ton of games and their starters have blown up too often too early. No team is going to win like that. So Hendry is going to have to spend the winter getting the pitching situation righted or wqe'll be looking at another long season in 2006.

I listened to the Stone interview and frankly, I felt he was dead on target. I also didn't feel he was grinding an ax or retaliative. I felt he was simply telling it as is. I know some resent Stone for various reasons and how they interpret his comments are colored by this. And I can understand somewhat. Stone can be extremely arrogant which at times is grating. But I have always been able to block out the personality and absorb his wisdom. And he does have a lot. About Dusty When questioned about Dusty's toothpick, laid back demeanor his response was on target. I will paraphrase. Demeanor is about style, not substance. It has nothing to do with a team's performance. But when players consistently fail to execute the most fundamental plays in baseball, it is about substance and is a reflection of the manager. He mentioned Cox pulling Andruw Jones for loafing on a play and Ozzie doing the same with Uribe. No..Dusty doesn't make the mistakes in the field but someone has to hold the players accountable for lack of focus and that person is the manager. We haven't seen it. And if it's been behind closed doors, it hasn't worked. About Aramis Stone did not bring up Aramis, the interviewer did, asking him about Aramis dogging it. Stone clearly stated that he would give Aramis a pass because to him he looked injured. Brenley is the one who has ragged on Aramis, not Stone. About Murton Realistically, even though I love the guy, I think Stone is right. Murton does not show the tools of a corner outfielder as yet. He has not shown power, great defense, great arm or speed....yet. He concluded with "I hope I'm wrong". I hope we're both wrong because I don't see it either....yet. About Z When asked about Z bailing out in the third, back problem, his comment was pretty much what many of us wondered. Why would he have attempted a drag bunt, a very physical exercise, with a bad back. Why not save your energies for pitching? But in the end, Stone, myself and probably most others are willing to accept his word. If he says his back hurts, it hurts. I for one am glad that someone with credibility like Stone is calling out this pathetic excuse for players performance and manager and that he has an ESPN forum from which to operate. Maybe it will embarrass the front office, manager, players or someone enough to change this horror show called the Cubs that has been playing daily. I know I'm ready for it.

"I cannot believe how much love Hendry gets as if he's done no wrong. He was 0-4 in the offseason when everyone said we needed a LF, closer, leadoff man and OBP guys. He's 0-5 if you include the need to improve the middle relief." I for one don't give Hendry a free pass, he's got some blind spots. I don't think he values defense enough, esp up the middle (Barrett, Walker, Nomar) I also think he needs to pay more attention to the mix of players. He needs to incorporate a few more OBP, bat handlers with the free swinging sluggers. But I don't blame him for not paying mega bucks for any of the closers in last year's mix or throwing big $$$ after bullpen help which is a crapshoot at best. Hiring Dusty at the time wss a good idea, just too bad he couldn't have signed him to a 2 or 3 yr contract to see how he fared in a high pressure big market because there was some evidence from SF that he didn't like criticism. But once hiring him I think Hendry needed to resist turning the Cubs into a geriatric team as has happened to the Giants. Dusty's weakest point has always been playing veterans at expense of youth and even common sense. This means not signing players such as Macias, Perez, Hollandsworth etc and allow the bench to be composed of young talent and perhaps one veteran utility infielder. If you're going to hire Dusty for his assets you have to protect against his liabilities. He has enough of a track record to know what they are. There is some evidence that Hendry is beginning to grasp some of this so it will be interesting to see how he goes about "Dusty proofing" the team in the off season.

i"f we had bobby cox and leo mazzone and john schuerholz and ted turner we'd be 40 games over .500 right now" And we'd have a different team.

I think the team was poorly constructed. We are near the top in HR and BA, yet below average in RS. Scoring runs is how you win games. But to do that, you need base runners. We don't have many for two reasons. 1. We don't walk...we're 27th in BB 2. We have too many high K, low contact hitters. A by-product of this is giving the opposing pitcher many easy innings which in turn keeps him strong and keeps us out of the weak middle relief. We have our RBI men in Aram and DLee and to some extent Burnitz. But we also need on base types to set the table, put pressure on the defense, score runs. We also have below average defense up the middle which one rarely sees in championship teams. Barrett is defensively challenged, for sure. Walker ...not great. Nomar has below average range. True he hasn't played much, but this is the team constructed. Being without a true closer for so long really hurt as did the injuries to Prior and Wood. But injuries happen and solidly constructed teams can overcome them. Dusty is what he is, a manager that relys on veterans obviously to a fault. But the pieces he had to work with do not compliment his style. He likes veterans because he doesn't like to teach or correct players. He expects them to understand fundamentals and not make foolish mistakes. So players who do not have high baseball IQs like Barrett, Walker, Hairston should not be acquired for a Baker team. They won't be benched for stupidity ( not Baker's style) so it sets a precedent that lapses are tolerated. Just as hitting is contagious, so are mistakes. If you don't understand the person who will manage the team you are constructing you're not doing your job. Baker would not be my choice of manager but if I hired him, I'd make certain to assemble not only a competitive team but one that would work well with the manager.

"Does anyone remember the circumstances of Dusty's leaving SF. Wasn't the team successful, but they didn't try to keep him? " Yes, the team was successful. He left after the 2002 season when the Giants lost the WS to the Angels. I work in the Bay Area so I was able to follow some of it . There seemed to be problems behind the scenes with upper management, especially Sabean. The fan base grew to be as critical as we are, pretty much for the same reasons. That's why I wasn't happy with him coming to the Cubs. The Giants aged as a team dramatically because, as we know, he prefered veterans and gave little chance to the younger players despite what he says. He's the type of manager that needs a veteran team because he doesn't like to teach and has little tolerance for rookie mistakes. He also doesn't like to correct his players so he needs experienced guys who know better. I would call him a people person and a master motivator. But as we see the last 2 years, motivating without correcting serious problems just doesn't get it done. The last couple of years in SF the media started picking at him and we know how he can't take the heat. They were esp critical of some of his decisions in the WS. It was pretty much a foregone conclusion that he would leave after 2002. And despite his relative success there, nobody shed many tears.

I doubt that the rumors ae 100% accurate, probably not even close to accurate. But Dusty is not someone who takes the heat well so he has probably mouthed off to some associates and a few people ran with it. I don't doubt that he would prefer to be somewhere else ( esp the west coast where his home is) but even if Tracy goes, DePodesta would not hire Dusty to manage a sabermetrically constructed team. Nor would Oakland. SF would never rehire him. The Angels have a great manager. That leaves SD and Seattle out west, neither with a big payroll .

I can separate Hendry and Baker but they have both contributed to this mess. We aren't just losing games. We are playing a Keystone Cop routine night after night, ignoring fundamental defense, having brain lapses, failing to execute, having no visible game plan. It is a manager's responsibility to hold his players accountable for these pathetic performances. I haven't seen it. It is a manager's responsibility to change it. It hasn't happened. What manager in his right mind would put the 2 worst OBP guys in the one-two position when you had an RBI machine batting 3rd? And leave them there for weeks and weeks? Unreal. Hendry promoted Murton and Cedeno in the middle of very effective seasons...for what? To rot on the bench with an occasional PH? If Dusty wouldn't commit to playing them then they should have played out their season in the minors so they would be ready for next year. Hendry let Miller go and signed Barrett because he was enamored with his offense. Well you don't bring in a questionable game caller and poor defensive catcher when your bread and butter is a young, power, pitching staff. How many times has Barrett let a ball get by to advance a runner or drop foul tip third strikes,? He can't seem to make a play at the plate or make an accurate throw to 2nd. He has the baseball IQ of an orange. Hendry also signed the fragile and declining Nomar with limited range and the defensive liability that roams 2nd base. We have all heard of strong defense up the middle characterizing winning teams. We had it in 2003 with Miller, Grud, Gonzales and Corey. The Cards have it with Molina, Grud, Eckstein and Edmonds.We have Barrett, Nomar, Walker ...all below average defensively. How smart is that? Hendry makes great deals but how could he have ignored left field during the off season, expecting a bench player and rookie to hold it down? The bullpen is always a crap shoot so I won't hammer him there, but come on, a corner outfield needs production and a steady hand. That said, I hope Hendry continues on because he is a great deal maker, aggressive and committed. He does have blind spots and he does need to be more concerned with defense. But Dusty...I can't imagine how he can stay. This team is surely an embarrassment to themselves and I can't see how they can continue to respect the Dusty regeime. Unless this team makes a dramatic turn-around to respectability , I think Dusty will be gone next year.

They excell at stranding runners on third with less than 2 outs. They are also pretty good at getting picked off.

I hear ya Sammy. I am a coach also (LL) and if my team turned in a display such as tonight I would be embarrassed because even my little guys know how to do a proper rundown and my pitchers know when and how to cover first. I am shocked, really, at how fundamentally unsound this team is. And these are not rookies. They've been trained in various systems. They have played baseball all their life. Do they suddenly become dumb as a Cub? Tonight was a nightmare but it was only a continuation of poor fundamentals, game after game. If this were to happen to any coach's team in any competitive league everyone involved would be blaming the coach, I guarantee it, and they should. Because once players are taught the proper way to perform ( coach's responsibility) they are expected to execute, and if they don't, it is the coach's responsibility to find out why and substitute, bench or whatever it takes to insure that the team perorms the way it is capable. I don't blame Dusty for failure to cover first, perform proper rundowns, bunt, move runners etc. but I do blame him for allowing these lapses to continue without some visible and tangible methods to correct the problem. If players need to be benched, do it, no matter who it is. If they need to be yanked from the game, yank them. Take away the green lights. If they play like idiots, treat them like idiots. Do what is necessary to field a team that is focused and competitive. Anything less is cheating the game, the fans and in the long run, the players as well. Sorry for the long rant. Just can't believe this garbage I saw tonight.

Mental errors cost this game, not Dusty. He did what he could with the pen available. Barrett has always been a very poor defensive catcher and always will be. Just depends upon how much defense you want to give up for his bat. Frankly, with this young, hard throwing staff I would prefer a Matheny type.

Cubfan, surely, surely you didn't think DuBois was our hottest prospect. He can't catch the ball and his K rate is frightening. There are no sure fire signings. They can go down with injury (i.e. Drew, Beneitiz, etc) they can underperform (i.e. Beltre, Beltran). The best any GM can do is try to put their team in position to win. Hendry has done that. There are no gaurantees no matter how high the payroll ( see Yankees, Mets ). One can never have ( afford) sufficient backups when there are injuries to key players like Nomar, Wood, Prior. You have to go into a make do mode. Hendry made trades in 2003 and 2004 to get us into the playoffs. In 2003 we got their, in 2004 we should have. The players lost their focus. In 2005 he made the best trade he could make with what was available. Who made a better one this year? I understand the frustration with not yet winning it all. But at some point the players have to play to their ability as a TEAM.

Under the circumstances, I think this is an excellent trade. We are not exactly looking like world beaters so giving up any players of consequence is not a good idea. On the other, the trade addressed a real problem. We haven't had much of anything at leadoff ( except Hairston for a few weeks but now fading) and we gain an experienced outfielder. I think this stabalizes the lineup and provides a spark at the top. It gives us another bullet to make a run if the team can get it together. Unless we wanted to trade for Farnsworth ( ha ha) there wasn't anything out there that is better than the potential of Wood and Williamson. If they don't work out, they don't but what's the point of taking on more garbage? maybe through the waiver wire we can pick up something in relief later as teams drop out, but for now, standing pat here was wise. Hendry did good. Again.

"Has anyone here ever played high school or college sports? Seriously, I really dont think a lot of you have. " Yep, I have, both HS and College and you're right, I've been called just about everything. Without pay. This preoccupation and moaning over the Hawkins booing is ridiculous. He makes millions. He's a pro. Learn to deal with it.