Tracer Bullet

When reading this thread (and considering arguing against Theriot's value), we should all keep in mind that a month or so ago, when asked to pick any 5 players in all of baseball with which to start a team (I think it was 5, somewhere in there), Theriot was 1 of MurtonFan's guys. I have to assume that for most people here, Theriot wouldn't even be 1 of the five Cubs you'd pick to start a team. Just wanted to shed some light on what we're up against.

You lost me

I think they are willing to give Murton a shot-at least against left-handers. If Murton is only getting PT against left-handers though, or if he's getting 50 percent or less of the at-bats, is Kielty a better option to be that role player? Yes. I meant Murton full-time in RF, which they clearly aren't going to do. Rather than have him platoon and only see 1-2 starts a week, I'd rather use Kielty.

I never really looked at him - but wow. I'm loving those lines against LHP. Career .296/.379/.509/.888. I'm not sure why he's so bad this year, but it's only a handful of ABs. If we're not going to give Murton a shot, let's add Kielty and let him play RF against LHP.

Does anyone have the actual quote from Law? I skimmed the posts, but didn't see it. For some reason, when a poster paraphrases him and lobs a personal attack at him in the same breath, I discredit the accuracy of the paraphrasing. But that's just me.

ditto

The intent is to throw to one of the two, and he succeeded in doing so. This thing is not drawn up like some sort of option play, where the OF has a choice of which infielder to throw to. And "just throw it somewhere over thisaway and one of the guys will grab it" is certainly not the plan. The design is to have the first guy as the intended cutoff man, with the second, trailing guy giving the first guy (who has his back to the infield awaiting the OF's throw) verbal direction on where to go with the relay throw. Providing backup for the OF's throw is guy #2's secondary responsibility. The bottom line is that if the ball ends up with guy #2, there was a problem with the throw in from the OF... either the throw itself was offline or long/short, or possibly guy #1 wasn't where he should've been. Actually, the way I was taught in HS was the OF has an option, in a manner of speaking. The idea being to get the ball to the infield as quick as possible, if setting your feet and making a good throw is an option, usually the 2nd guy got the ball; if you're running away from the throw, you would stop before throwing, but you wouldn't be able to get your momentum going forward to get the ball as far as your normal throw. It depends on how far the throw is and how strong the OFs arm is. If the OF can overthrow the 2nd cut-off guy (without throwing a moon ball), the guys were standing too close to the OF. At the ML level, it wouldn't make sense for most OFs to intend to hit the first guy with the throw unless they're running away from the throw because most ML OFs, if set or moving toward the throw, can throw it to the cut of the grass from the wall on the fly or 1 easy hop (obviously, some more than others).

For Jason Bay? I'm trying to come up with guys that would be acceptable. On the Pirates roster, that's not easy.

If nothing else, probably b/c the Rangers suck.

Can you make the pic in your signature a little bigger? I'm trying to determine what Kerry has under his fingernail...

Is Wilson to the Tigers done yet? I want to give my Tiger-fan friends a hard time.

Marmol better be untouchable. I'd rather trade Pie. ? yes, may I help you? Marmol more untouchable than Pie? That's a little crazy.

Marmol better be untouchable. I'd rather trade Pie. ?

PECOTA probably assumes Murton would, you know, get to play, given his .800 OPS last year. I like Church, but the numbers are so similar, that I'd much rather have the guy that's 3 years younger. We have a CF for the future (Pie).

I'd rather have Kemp than Ethier.

That's silly, sorry it just is. Yes - we disagree. If you make a strong throw to the 2nd guy, that was a good play.

because if the throw gets by from the second guy, there is no failsafe--the run scores--thus, the double cut to protect against that. Also, as previously mentioned, the sooner a cut-off guy has it in his glove, the less likely the 3rd base coach will send the runner home. The difference between the time it takes a ball to get to the 1st cut off and the 2nd cut off can't be more than 1-2 seconds. They're typically 50' apart (or less). In most instances, the coach has already stopped or sent the runner by the time the cut off catches the ball. The decision is made when the first throw is still in the air. Which is obviously why sometimes the cut-off man bobbles the ball but the guy can't score b/c he's already come to a stop after rounding 3rd.

I can't imagine any ML team telling Bobby Abreau, Cuddyer, Ichiro, pick your favorite good-throwing OF "don't throw it to the 2nd cut-off guy, just throw it 150' and let Jose Vidro (or who ever is playing 2B) throw it the other 150."

The great part of your posts is that you don't frame the question in a biased manner. Those of us who disagree with Sut and you think Murton threw to the correct cut-off man (the 2nd one). We're not arguing that he should "overthrow the cut-off man." There were 2 cut-off men and Murton made a good throw to the 2nd one. so the first guy is superfluous? He serves no purpose? I have played and coached baseball for 45 years and this is the first time I ever heard that the outfielder is supposed to intentionally overthrow the first cut-off man. In fact, I am stunned anybody is even proposing this. Listen, I like Murton. He overthrew a cut-off guy and the double cut served its purpose. Again, Matt CAN make mistakes. You guys sound silly trying to make it sound like he didn't. You sound silly trying to make a good throw sound like a mistake (I'm getting tired of you calling me silly, btw). If the 2 guys are properly spaced, they both have a purpose. If the throw is short, bad, or the OF doesn't have a good arm, the first guy is there. If the OF can easily throw it to the 2nd guy or if the first guy misses the ball (either his fault or the OFs) the 2nd guy gets it. In some cases, you'll see an OF just pick up a ball and whirl and throw toward the 2 guys w/o really even looking. He doesn't care who catches it b/c it more important that he gets it to an infielder as quickly as possible. I'm not really a fan of that style b/c the throws tend to be weaker and erratic but whatever. If the OF gets to the ball and could easily throw it to the 2nd cut-off (standing near the back of the infield dirt), but instead throws it to the closer guy, the relay is going to be much longer. And at the ML level, most RF can throw a lot farther than most 2B, so it makes sense to throw to the 2nd cut-off guy when possible.

The great part of your posts is that you don't frame the question in a biased manner. Those of us who disagree with Sut and you think Murton threw to the correct cut-off man (the 2nd one). We're not arguing that he should "overthrow the cut-off man." There were 2 cut-off men and Murton made a good throw to the 2nd one.

LOL, wasn't that drunk color guy Sutcliffe? Yes. And for the record, it was DeRosa, not Fontenot. Not that it matters who it was, but I'm busting chops today. Whoever it was, was out of position. Sutcliffe probably saw the field better, but it looked to me like Murton turned caught sight of whoever was at the end of the infield, whirled and threw. Luckily Theriot was there already. Like I wrote, if he would have hit the cut off, that's a run. I turned on the XM and listened to Corey Provis and Ron on a 15 second delay after about the fourth inning of listening to Suttcliffe name drop and basically provide every cliche known to baseball. He sucks. Since we're bagging on outfielders, how about Pagan with the brain fart? At least he didn't toss it into the bleacerhes. Derosa wasn't out of position. Middle infielders are taught to go out that far to receive a cut off throw. One of the reasons is because the 3rd base coach will probably hold a runner if it's already in the hand of the cut off man. exactly I disagree - but regardless, Murton hit the correct cut-off. Laugh. That is silly. [wonders if he, like raw, can get away with the "auto a-hole" comment...]

LOL, wasn't that drunk color guy Sutcliffe? Yes. And for the record, it was DeRosa, not Fontenot. Not that it matters who it was, but I'm busting chops today. Whoever it was, was out of position. Sutcliffe probably saw the field better, but it looked to me like Murton turned caught sight of whoever was at the end of the infield, whirled and threw. Luckily Theriot was there already. Like I wrote, if he would have hit the cut off, that's a run. I turned on the XM and listened to Corey Provis and Ron on a 15 second delay after about the fourth inning of listening to Suttcliffe name drop and basically provide every cliche known to baseball. He sucks. Since we're bagging on outfielders, how about Pagan with the brain fart? At least he didn't toss it into the bleacerhes. Derosa wasn't out of position. Middle infielders are taught to go out that far to receive a cut off throw. One of the reasons is because the 3rd base coach will probably hold a runner if it's already in the hand of the cut off man. exactly I disagree - but regardless, Murton hit the correct cut-off.

I like DeRo at second too, but when he isn't playing second and giving Fontenot's recent performance I'd start Cedeno at second, not short. Theriot has proven he can handle short. And also, I like your opinion on how to use Cedeno, he seems like the kind of guy who gets other guys hot by starting in their place for a few days. A - what does that even mean? B - is that what Abe said? It means he gives a guy a rest and lets the starter figure out his swing and come back in and hit well. Simple baseball logic. That's pretty ridiculous baseball logic. How many every day players need to take a few days off every so often to "figure out their swing"? And taking a few days off periodically isn't going to "get other guys hot." That makes no sense. I mean when they're in a slump. It worked for Riot and JJ, and seems to be working for Font, he hit the ball hard yesterday aganst a lefty So "he seems like the kind of guy who gets other guys hot by starting in their place for a few days" was a very roundabout way of saying you think Cedeno makes a good backup?

Which defensive shortcoming are you talking about?

I like DeRo at second too, but when he isn't playing second and giving Fontenot's recent performance I'd start Cedeno at second, not short. Theriot has proven he can handle short. And also, I like your opinion on how to use Cedeno, he seems like the kind of guy who gets other guys hot by starting in their place for a few days. A - what does that even mean? B - is that what Abe said? It means he gives a guy a rest and lets the starter figure out his swing and come back in and hit well. Simple baseball logic. That's pretty ridiculous baseball logic. How many every day players need to take a few days off every so often to "figure out their swing"? And taking a few days off periodically isn't going to "get other guys hot." That makes no sense.