The Voice of Reason

Triple B, Vance, Hoops (and anyone else) - The price of poker is going up because of the weak free agent class and because all the teams have money to spend (even KC and Pittsburgh). Assume Giles won't come to the Cubs under any circumstances (I know you don't agree with this premise but just humor me). Also assume it would cost you $60 milllion to get Burnett (5 x $12 million) and the Reds won't trade within the division. Finally, assume a 20% premium over market value for the remaining free agents, that other teams will only make trades (fair for both sides) with the Cubs and that you don't want an "overpriced" Furcal. How would you make the Cubs pennant contenders?

Very unselfish act by Chipper. Shows how much he and the Braves value Furcal. http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051117&content_id=1269782&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp

On Hendry's latest interview he even admitted fault to how that Sosa situation was handled. That should tell you right there how bad it was and how quickly that diminshed Sosa's value. At least Hendry admitted his mistakes in the matter. Too bad it appears that the Gladiator will never be man enough to admit his. I believe that Sosa is probably much older than 38 and that contributed to his rapid demise. The HBO documentary on how most players from the Dominican Republic in the 80's and 90's lied about their age was very well written. Lying was the older players only way out of a life of poverty. Many were caught after 9/11 when better documentation was required.

You sir, are truly the voice of reason - too bad that name is already taken. :lol:

Amazing how fast (a little over two years) someone can go from God and Genius (after stealing Aram, Lofton and Lee) to incompetent buffoon. :?

M&PM - Any idea/speculation on who the other clubs are?

Why? Why is he so unattainable for the Cubs, yet a half dozen other teams supposedly have a good shot? The only way they would have no chance to sign him is if they don't try to sign him. It's a self fulfilling prophecy when you assume you can't get a guy, so you don't even try to get a guy. The Cubs could sign Giles if they wanted him. There is absolutely no evidence to support the theory that he'd refuse to play for the Cubs. If you show no interest, he's not going to beg you for it. Giles is obtainable, and taking the attitude that he is not is simply sealing your own fate with mediocrity, as usual. There no evidence of anything, only speculation and educated guesses. I theorize that Hendry told the Giles people that he didn't want the Cubs used solely to drive his price up (like Boras tried to do last year with Beltran). The Cubs fill only one ($) of Giles apparent three "requirements" i.e, location, money and guranteed to contend. The Yankees (2), Dodgers (2), Cards (2) and Angels (3) fill more of the three needs. Not trying to be a wet blanket - just a realist.

I don't buy that for a second. You think there's any chance an agent will tell a big market team with a top payroll that they won't entertain any offers from them until everybody else drops out? That's about the worst possible strategy, and most unrealistic scenario that could play out in this mess. There is no excuse not to get in on the Giles talks, and there is no reason to try and search for excuses. I don't buy what you are saying either. If Giles specifically told his agent that he wants to play for the Yankees, Cards, Angels or Dodgers, I guarantee you Bick wouldn't bother talking to the Cubs, Mets, Tigers or Mariners in the initial rounds. Several teams could have afforded Hideki Matsui too. According to Bruce Levine, Arn Tellem didn't talk to anybody except the Yankees. Excellent points Hoops. The Cubs aren't even needed by the Giles people to drive his price up. Sadly, the Cubs have as much chance to get Giles as they did last year to get Beltran, i.e, NONE. That's why they are focusing on obtainable targets like Furcal, Pierre, Eyre and hopefully others.

SI story below on Furcal. If the Mets are serious about Delgado or Manny Ramirez (as reported), I'd say Furcal comes down to the Braves and Cubs. Anybody else here Bruce (the Cubs are close to getting Pierre) Levine reporting on ESPN this morning that the Cubs are close to signing Eyre? That's what I thought I heard but I was half asleep. Hopefully, this time he's right. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/john_donovan/11/16/furcal/index.html

So, do we totally dismiss a player's minor league stats? Or what the club's scouts think of a player? It would certainly be a gamble letting Cedeno start at short in 2006. But if that gamble meant 10 million dollars toward upgrading serious deficiencies somewhere else, it makes sense. A lot of people advocating Cedeno over Furcal are wanting Giles over what they fear will be an average or maybe even below average player in right field. Some are suggesting the club spend the extra dough on a top of the rotation pitcher. Either way, it's not like people that want Cedeno are saying he's better than Furcal, they're just saying he's not 9.6 million dollars worse. Now, your last sentance I agree with just because I fear Neifi will be starting at either SS or 2B due to the coach and the contract he just signed. I love Giles but I don't see him coming to the Cubs - There is too much competition. The west coast teams have location. The east coast teams have money and the Cardinals are a perennial contender. In most publications, the Cubs aren't even in Giles top five. At least with Furcal, it appears to be only the Cubs and Atlanta are the only serious contenders and the Cubs have more money to spend to get him. Also, he fills two pressing needs (ss and leadoff). To sum it up, I don't think the Cubs can get Giles (even if they were the highest bid which they won't be), don't think Cedeno's ready and do not want to see Neifi again full-time at short. Better Furcal and a mediocre RF than Neifi and a mediocre RF. Totally agree and why I've stated in other posts that I'm so high on one of the crown jewels from their well stocked farm system (Furcal). The fact that a team smart enough to win 14 division titles in a row wants desperately to keep him only make him more appealing in my eyes.

Appears to have great potential and a lot of you guys are advocating using him as a much cheaper alternative than Furcal. But aren't you putting a lot faith in a guy than has only played 29 games in his career as a major league shortstop and has all of 80 at bats? The Cubs have a long history of hot September call-ups and "can't miss" propects that fizzled over the long run when given a chance to start. I fear we would end up with Neifi back as shortstop. Thoughts?

Evidently the Red Sox have provided Mr. Boras with a reality check. The Red Sox are expected to make their opening offer to Johnny Damon in the next couple of days -- it's expected to be in the three-year, $25 million-$27 million range -- and are making their interest known in both A.J. Burnett and B.J. Ryan. The Sox, concerned about the age of their rotation and health issues involving Curt Schilling, also have interest in Kevin Millwood but will explore trade possibilities for a starting pitcher as well. -- Boston Globe

Didn't Boras start the bidding for Beltran at $20 million a year for 10 years? Giles loves California. NY is about as far away from the California lifestyle as you can get. Can't see him there. He'll get a lot of money someplace else.

Why not let Ronny start at SS and spend the money on a difference maker? There's also guys like Lugo out there who is a small step down from Furcal, but much less expensive. I love how you don't even consider Furcal a difference maker. I'm sure there are some people in Atlanta that might disagree with you.[/quote] Why should we care that the Braves organization values Furcal so highly? What do they know other than how to win 14 straight division titles. I think recognizing talent has played a part in their success. Saying Nomar is currently a better shortstop than Furcal is ridiculous. If that was true, there'd be more teams interested in Nomar than Furcal and there aren't. Nomar's best days are behind him.

Is it really too much to keep Neifi from the top of the order and playing SS on a team we would like to play meaningful games at the end of the season? I'll let the Cubs worry about payroll... heck the Trib has the money. Hopefully, they are worrying about secondarily to winning. yeah, it's just money now, but when Z, Prior, and Lee are due the big bucks, we're going to look back on Furcal's contract with loathing. Not me. Although I may look back with loathing at the $9 million dollars paid a 40 year old pitcher, the $12 million paid to Sosa when he was with the Orioles and the incredible sum paid Kerry Wood.

After reading the attached, I'm convinced the Cubs will get their man (Furcal). The fact that a respected and well-run organization like the Braves want to keep him (but just probably can't afford him) only makes him more desirable in my eyes. Sure getting Giles would be incredible but with so many suitors, I doubt the Cubs could get it done. Better to get Furcal than come in second or third with Giles. Get it done Jim.

and finish fifth. If no Furcal, why not add Giles, Pierre, Eyre and Burnett or Millwood. CF pierre 2B walker 1B lee 3B ramirez RF Giles C barrett LF murton SS Cedeno

Agree. We'd probably have a better chance of getting Dontrelle Willis back from the Marlins? :lol:

YearofDaCubs wrote: Slight improvement from last year? You can't be serious. Note the sarcastic parentheses around "slight" - it would be IMO a huge improvement. Get it done Hendry.

^ lineup at least wins the wild card. Now back to reality. Has Florida given any indication that they would be willing to move Castillo? The Scouting Report on Pierre - Lifetime .305/.355/.730 2004 Season Coming off an eye-opening season as the fire-starter for the World Series champs, Juan Pierre was paid more attention than ever, both at the plate and on the basepaths. He slumped badly in June, but all in all Pierre managed to turn in another strong season. His consecutive-games streak stands at 335 games and counting. Hitting For the third time in the past four years, Pierre banged out 200 hits. It's no accident. Though he could show more patience for a leadoff hitter, his remarkable hand-eye coordination allows him to put almost any ball in play. He is fearless against lefties and doesn't give in against anybody, Randy Johnson included. He saw more hard stuff on the inner half last year, putting a crimp in his slap-and-dash ways. So Pierre eventually adjusted and started pulling more pitches between the first and second basemen. Always thinking, he's not afraid to be innovative at the plate. He didn't bunt as much in the first half, but started to reclaim that part of his repertoire after the break. Baserunning & Defense Largely due to the adjustments by opposing pitchers, Pierre didn't come close to defending his first NL stolen-base crown. He was caught a career-high 24 times in 69 attempts and saw his success rate drop from 76 to 65 percent. His defense remains a huge plus at spacious Pro Player Stadium. His range allowed the Marlins to get by with Miguel Cabrera and Jeff Conine flanking him for the first four months. Pierre's arm probably precludes him from Gold Glove consideration, but he never gives up on balls in the gap and makes his share of highlight catches. His resemblance to a young Mickey Rivers remains eerie. 2005 Outlook Pierre is due $3.6 million in the final year of his contract, after which he will be a fifth-year eligible for salary arbitration. He could yet grow too pricey for the budget-conscious Marlins, but for now he remains their heart and soul. I'd say Pierre/Furcal would be a "slight" :wink: improvement to the top of the order from Neifi/Patterson or any other combos from last year.

Chicago is a world class city about 1,500 miles closer to Bradenton than San Franciso. Doubt Florida or Tampa Bay would go after him. I think he could be had for "Neifi money." Never can have too many (or how about one) quality left hander.

Could make a nice set up man for Dempster. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/baseball/mlb/11/08/bc.bbn.giants.eyre.ap/index.html

Per Ken Rosenthal: The Braves are expected to increase their offer to free-agent shortstop Rafael Furcal from three years to four and perhaps add a fifth year as a club option. If the Braves sign Furcal, trading second baseman Marcus Giles, a free agent after the 2007 season, could be a possibility. If Furcal departs, the team could pursue a stopgap at short or go with rookie Tony Pena Jr. while upgrading the offense and bullpen. Pena is ready defensively. http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5067162 Oh well, at least we have Neifi to fall back on. :roll:

This goes on to suggest the Dodgers wouldn't want much in return for Bradley, especially if they might non-tender him. The Cubs should be all over him. He'd break up the good chemistry that they have...I'd pass. How did "clubhouse cancer" A. J. Pierzynski work out for the White Sox this year?

My high placed source at the Tribune Company* has told me that their has been no discussions (that he is aware of) regarding the Tribune Company selling the Cubs. Although the Trib may sell off other pieces of their conglomerate, he cited the Cubs PR value, tax consequences (on a gain of $600 million), and desire to keep the Cubs broadcast rights as reasons the Trib wouldn't sell. On an even more depressing note, he indicated that he foresaw little, if any, increases to the Cubs payroll because "it's one of the highest in the league and besides every games is a sellout." *Just a neighbor who works at the Trib. It just sounds so cool when everyone else references their "sources."