ThePenguin11

Did anyone know that we actually drafted Greene before he decided to return to Clemson?

it kind of is when you could get equal production for 10% of the cost by giving the job to gallagher. the lieber signing alone isn't going to break the cubs. it doesn't really improve them either. but you combine lieber's 3.5 million with dempster's 5 million, marquis' 6 million, eyre's 4 million, and blanco's 3 million that's around 21-22 million that could be easily replaced by cheaper players and spent on 1 or 2 very good players. jon lieber was a pointless signing. it wasn't a horrible signing that's going to cost the cubs the season, but it's jim hendry's usual pointless signing done for the sole purpose that he doesn't trust rookies to fill less-important jobs. How could you know that? You know, I could get a good look at a T-Bone steak by sticking my head up a bulls ass, but wouldn't you rather take the butcher's word? That makes no sense. A Tommy Boy quote. I thought it was funny.

Aside from the "I'm in favor of signing Lieber", this post is right on the money. I should clarify that I'm in favor of signing him in the range of $2MM + incentives.

Isn't it bad if we sign Lieber for more than it would have cost to take Prior to arbitration? (i.e. $3.5MM+) Especially with the amount of options we have in Gallagher, Marshall, Marquis, etc. Don't get me totally wrong, in this situation, I'm in favor of signing Lieber for the quasi-hometown-discount-reclamation-project discount...but it seems kinda backwards to do this when the easy solution might have been to tell Prior to suck it up for a year and take what an arbitor awards him with.

You could argue that Boston might not jump at trading their top 2 major league-ready prospects for a guy who is making upwards of $20MM per year. They're not going to have to pay these two guys more than the league minimum for the next 3-5 years. That's pretty important for a team with so much crazy money already committed to their annual roster. I think you might be wrong about Buchholz though. He could turn out to be much better than Zambrano for all we know. It's not as if he wasn't hyped in the minors. And he's done nothing to suggest that he will be any worse than Carlos.

A relief pitcher should never be a sticking point, IMO. IMO he's our best reliever, and possibly our closer. Giving up all of those prospects may even be too much, but my concern is winning a World Series title, so that one reliever - to me - is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Not having him on the team this year can easily make this more of a lateral move than one that pushes us closer to winning the trophy with all the little metal flags on it.

I voted no, but had to think about it first. Marmol is my major sticking point. Take him out and you have a deal.

The teams that score the most runs each season are the teams who put up the best team OBP. The more your team is on base, the more the team scores, the more plate appearances guys get. If you go back to Derrek Lee's 2005, not only did Lee suffer on plate appearances because of the poorly constructed line up, he had limited at bats with runners on base. His 99 XBH's that season ranks among the top offensive seasons in baseball history. I'm on board with that as well. I'd love to see a lineup of Roberts, Fukudome, Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, DeRosa, Soto, Pie, P...but I'm sure it will look more like...Roberts, Theriot, Soriano, Lee, Ramirez, Fukudome, Pie, Soto, Pitcher. My philosophy is probably obvious - 1-2 should be your best non-power OBP guys (provided they're not Paul Konerko-slow (but don't need to be fast either)) then your best power for 3-4-5 with 6-7-8 being everyone else in order of hitting talent.

Not a bad argument, but I still see nothing wrong with Soriano leading off. It doesn't bother me in the slightest if a really good hitter is batting lead off. The lead off hitter doesn't have to be just a table setter. Soriano has had 100 RBI seasons as a lead off hitter. If you have solid hitters throughout the line up, everyone can expect a boost in overall production, because the whole team will see more at bats over the course of a season, because more runs are scoring and more guys are getting on base. Soriano was productive as the lead off hitter last year. I can't really argue with that. I guess having a great 1-8 lineup is going to yeild great results regardless. Let's hope we can at least get a great 1-7 or even 1-6 hitters. The jury will still be out on Soto and Theriot for a little while.

It may be a real thing, but it's value is artificially inflated. Guys who "can leadoff" are given greater market value, for no good reason. Roberts' value lies in his production numbers, not in his supposed ability to hit leadoff. There's nothing wrong with going after a player like Roberts, there is something wrong with going after a guy like Roberts because he can leadoff and thus paying a premium for that arbitrary qualification. I think people overstate the fact that a leadoff hitter only leads off once and forget the fact that he always bats before a teams heart of the order (unless the inning starts with the 2-3-4-5 hitters). What's lost on the whole lineup discussion is that your leadoff hitter and your 2-hitter are table-setters for your heart-of-the-order hitters. If lineup position was completely irrelevant, your best power hitters would not bat 3-4-5, they would be 1 or 2 or whereever (Soriano's ridiculous wishes excluded). Maybe, for semantics sake, we should call the leadoff hitter the: "sometimes-top-of-the-order, but-usually-table-setter-for-the-heart-of-the-order-guy". Maybe we'll need an acronym. STOTOBUTSFTHOTOG?

Man, are we really going to sit here and say Cabrera and Theriot are comparable shortstops? Theriot is marginal defensively at best and Cabrera is a gold glove shortstop. Just because Cabrera doesn't hit for power, doesn't mean he's not valuable. You have to throw out power statistics sometimes. Sometimes you just need guys who can play an important defensive position at an above average clip - while being a productive role player offensively. Well like I said, hes 32 years old, the age where defense presumably starts to slip, and he made $8.5 million last year and he is a FA next year. You want to throw Murton, Marshall and Cedeno (as was suggested by a poster in this thread) for a guy with possible declining defense and little offensive upside that might walk and get us a Type B draft pick after the season? Yes, personally, I would. Cedeno and Murton have next to no value to me (or most other teams for that matter). And I don't think Gallagher projects as a 1-3 starter, so also he's open season as far as I'm concerned. Cabrera gets us one step closer to the trophy with all the little metal flags on it. That's all I care about. Marginal prospects be damned. Edit: Upon proofreading, it probably looks as if I'm saying Gallagher is also a marginal prospect. Not really my intention. He's a pretty good prospect, but you have to trade pretty good prospects (or better) to get valuable MLB talent.

Man, are we really going to sit here and say Cabrera and Theriot are comparable shortstops? Theriot is marginal defensively at best and Cabrera is a gold glove shortstop. Just because Cabrera doesn't hit for power, doesn't mean he's not valuable. You have to throw out power statistics sometimes. Sometimes you just need guys who can play an important defensive position at an above average clip - while being a productive role player offensively. Well like I said, hes 32 years old, the age where defense presumably starts to slip, and he made $8.5 million last year and he is a FA next year. You want to throw Murton, Marshall and Cedeno (as was suggested by a poster in this thread) for a guy with possible declining defense and little offensive upside that might walk and get us a Type B draft pick after the season? Yes, personally, I would. Cedeno and Murton have next to no value to me (or most other teams for that matter). And I don't think Gallagher projects as a 1-3 starter, so also he's open season as far as I'm concerned. Cabrera gets us one step closer to the trophy with all the little metal flags on it. That's all I care about. Marginal prospects be damned.

We should also make something else clear, this trade is a figment of Phil Rogers imagination. When was the last time any trade he proposed ever actually got executed? He made up the scenario, so nobody should get uptight over the players names being mentioned. I see a less than 3% chance of this trade happening due to the teams involved. Phil Rogers has absolutely no insider information...ever.

Man, are we really going to sit here and say Cabrera and Theriot are comparable shortstops? Theriot is marginal defensively at best and Cabrera is a gold glove shortstop. Just because Cabrera doesn't hit for power, doesn't mean he's not valuable. You have to throw out power statistics sometimes. Sometimes you just need guys who can play an important defensive position at an above average clip - while being a productive role player offensively.

I'll jump back in since I kinda started the prospect arguement. What I need to make clear is that I don't think Pie or any of these guys "sucks". They may pan out, but I think it's not likely that many of them will post above average careers. I think they are more valuable to this team as trade chips if you can improve this team now and make the Cubs World Series competitive. This team's window is not that big, not many teams are. It won't be long before Soriano, Lee and Ramirez start declining. It could be three years, or it could only take one injury that starts diminishing returns. I want to win now and I'm willing to trade off a piece, even a big piece, of the future in order to win the whole damn thing now.

Pain. Great Rocky III reference. I actually used it a couple of hours ago when someone asked my prediction for the Bears game.

First, yeah, I think you missed the sarcasm. Secondly, why can't prospects be compared to Hall of Famers? People with similar skill sets are always compared, as they should. Nobody is saying Pie is a lock for 2500 hits. Nobody is saying Colvin is a Hall of Famer. Just saying that both have the potential to be very good ML hitters. At one point, Lofton and Gwynn were being compared to other people. Nobody knew Gwynn would win several batting titles and be a 1st ballot HOF. When trying to improve your team by trading prospects your expectations of said prospects need to be realistic. If you can gain an all-star caliber player for a guy who's proven next to nothing, and has - realisticaly very little chance of becoming a star - in order to make your team World Series competitive....then you do it. Anyone who thinks this team, as presently constituted, can beat the powers of the AL is diluted. Well, now you're talking about a completely different subject. I have never disagreed with anything you posted. I know, I caught that. There were a couple of others mixed in with the thread that got me fired up.

A) One Zambrano for every five Dubois is probably an excellenct ratio. B) You could not have possibly seen people say we can't possibly trading Dubois. It just never happened. The revisionist history of Dubois has gotten out of control. Dubois was never a big time prospect that everybody loved. Dubois was a guy some people thought could be halfway decent if they had 2 other solid outfielders to play alongside him. He was never an untouchable or anything close. He was never a darling. He was simply a guy people were willing to live so that the team could spend money on actual players. I was actually one of his bigger supporters on the board, but I never envisioned an OF of Dubois, Hollandsworth, Burnitz and Patterson. Dubois was just a body to fill a spot. Had they gone after a real corner OF, perhaps they could have lived with Dubois numbers. As it turns out, he never even came close to fulfilling the rather small expectations people actually had for him. Fine, I will give you DuBois, but there have been at least a dozen names people always wanted to keep that never panned out anyway. The odds of success are much more in your favor if you are the team dumping prospects for proven talent. Proven talent can always be turned into compensatory picks later to refill the farm system.

First, yeah, I think you missed the sarcasm. Secondly, why can't prospects be compared to Hall of Famers? People with similar skill sets are always compared, as they should. Nobody is saying Pie is a lock for 2500 hits. Nobody is saying Colvin is a Hall of Famer. Just saying that both have the potential to be very good ML hitters. At one point, Lofton and Gwynn were being compared to other people. Nobody knew Gwynn would win several batting titles and be a 1st ballot HOF. When trying to improve your team by trading prospects your expectations of said prospects need to be realistic. If you can gain an all-star caliber player for a guy who's proven next to nothing, and has - realisticaly very little chance of becoming a star - in order to make your team World Series competitive....then you do it. Anyone who thinks this team, as presently constituted, can beat the powers of the AL is diluted.

They can have Felix Patterson as far as I'm concerned. He needs to be traded before teams start figuring out that he's lost against major league pitching. He's supposed to be this burner on the paths and he steals bases at like a 55% clip. I don't think he's got much of a baseball IQ and I'm not keeping him around solely for defensive purposes. Felix Pie first 177 AB: .215/.270/.333 Alex Rodriguez first 184 AB: .223/.270/.348 Boy, I bet the Mariners are glad that they didn't give up and trade him away after the first 184 AB. But did the Mariners have a hispanic(sort of) SS prospect fail to meet expectations in the years prior??? HUH?? It's a great idea to temper enthusiasm on prospects, but so many people take this to the extreme. Every guy who puts up good numbers in the minors gets "Dubois LOL!!" Every guy who's fast with some power gets "Corey with a K!!! LOL!!!!" Every SP prospect who doesn't dazzle from day one gets "The great Juan Cruz HAHAHA" Every top prospect gets "HEE STRIKE OUT!!!!" Well thats half of the crowd. The other half is saying Pie and Colvin for Santana? NO WAY!!! Why give up Kenny Lofton and Tony Gwynn for a 29 year old pitcher? I've seen three comparisons here. Can you guys let me know if you're seriously comparing Arod, the player people are saying may end up being one of the TOP 10 PLAYERS OF ALL TIME to Felix Pie...and Kenny Lofton, a 15 year vet with 2,400 hits and a career .300/.370 line...and Tyler Colvin with Tony Gwynn, one of baseballs greatest all-time pure hitters? Please tell me I completely missed the sarcasm. Please.

They can have Felix Patterson as far as I'm concerned. He needs to be traded before teams start figuring out that he's lost against major league pitching. He's supposed to be this burner on the paths and he steals bases at like a 55% clip. I don't think he's got much of a baseball IQ and I'm not keeping him around solely for defensive purposes. Felix Pie first 177 AB: .215/.270/.333 Alex Rodriguez first 184 AB: .223/.270/.348 Boy, I bet the Mariners are glad that they didn't give up and trade him away after the first 184 AB. But did the Mariners have a hispanic(sort of) SS prospect fail to meet expectations in the years prior??? HUH?? It's a great idea to temper enthusiasm on prospects, but so many people take this to the extreme. Every guy who puts up good numbers in the minors gets "Dubois LOL!!" Every guy who's fast with some power gets "Corey with a K!!! LOL!!!!" Every SP prospect who doesn't dazzle from day one gets "The great Juan Cruz HAHAHA" Every top prospect gets "HEE STRIKE OUT!!!!" I agree, give Pie some time. He has been successful at every level he has played at so far and is still very young. Most of the time when we give our prospects time, they don't pan out and lose trade value. I've watched him play and I think his approach sucks. I don't think anyone knows where the hell he belongs in a lineup, because everyone hopes he still projects for power, but there's been no proof of that. His defense is his only asset in my opinion. Unlike the prospect hoarders on this board, I want to win now. This year. 2008. I'm sick and freaking tired of waiting until next year. I'm sick of being conservative and hoping things pan out. Our farm system blows. If people seem to think we have valuable chips in there, they can have them. The people teaching these kids are sorely lacking in teaching patience and fundamentals and it's shown for years. Go through the list and for every Zambrano and Hill there are five Jason Dubois', five Hee Seop Choi's, five Corey Patterson's, five Ryan Harvey's, etc. I've been watching this board for years and seeing people say we can't possibly trade Dubois, Patterson, etc. It's an ugly cycle. No matter how much you grow attached to these prospects you have to know that the odds are far more in favor that they may never suit up for your favorite ball club, let alone become an all-star caliber player. You can't have it both ways. You can't say you want to win a World Series at all costs and also not consider all of your prospects as tradeable assets. Nobody is untouchable. Nobody. Not after 100 years of losing. No way. Think about it: 100 years. End it already. This team needs to acquire whoever it takes to put them in competition with Boston, Cleveland, Detroit, Anaheim and New York. As Cubs fans, This should be our minimum expectation. And not just this year, every year. Otherwise you're just the same as the suckers they've been pandering to for a whole century.

They can have Felix Patterson as far as I'm concerned. He needs to be traded before teams start figuring out that he's lost against major league pitching. He's supposed to be this burner on the paths and he steals bases at like a 55% clip. I don't think he's got much of a baseball IQ and I'm not keeping him around solely for defensive purposes.

As a contrast you have the Yankees holding to Chamberlain, Hughes, and Kennedy. You sound dangerously close to "trade away all prospects for guys in the majors" and that strategy isn't going to work unless(ironically) you have a 200M payroll. Pre-FA players are the most valuable commodity in baseball. Trading them all away because we've had horrible drafting and developing over the past 15 years doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Especially when it was as recent as this season that 3/5 of our rotation was homegrown. That's not to mention of course Geovany Soto. I never said trade them all away. I'm saying that for impact talent at the major league level, these guys need to be thought of as tradeable assets. If we are really trying to win a world series, we need to be the team going out and getting a Dan Haren or an Erik Bedard. Soto's been a nice surprise so far, but let's not go crazy about a guy who started mashing AAA in his third year their. In 108 games in AAA soto had 8 HR and 38 RBI. Miraculously one year later Soto mashes 26 HR and 109 RBI. Something does not add up there. He's either completely mastered AAA pitching or he's been "training" with Rocket Clemens. His production was definitely good after being called up last year and his defense is great, but the sample is only 18 games. I like him, but I'm not ready to retire his number quite yet.

I'm not sold on this team at all. As presently constituted, this is not a World Series contender. They cannot compete with the top AL teams even if they are one of the better NL teams. I am tired of leaving all the bullets in the gun and not pulling the trigger with our minor league players. Hendry should go ahead and trade just about any of these guys for the best MLB talent that can help him now before they turn into the next Jason Dubois or the next Corey Patterson. I see teams getting aggresive like the D-Backs, acquiring Dan Haren or the Tigers trading the farm Cabrera and wonder what the hell Hendry is waiting for. I'm not sure why he places so much value on guys that he may not be around to see develop anyway.

Did anyone hear if the Mets tendered Estrada a contact or not? Did I miss something with Johnny Estrada? Did he all of the sudden become terrible? I had him on my fantasy baseball team last year and he was a pretty damn good hitter. I know he doesn't walk at all, but he really doesn't strike out much either. He has always been a pretty good hetter. Is his defense atrocious or something? I don't get it. If he can't find a job we should take a look at him.