ThePenguin11

What if the rumors die down in Spring Training, but then heat up again at the trade deadline? Then we'll keep it going and shoot for 500 pages. It will be our responsibility (much like the Knight in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade) to protect this thread and keep it alive so long as we live - and Brian Roberts is not yet a cub. I envision the year 2078 when our children's children are on NSBB talking about baseball on played on the moon (The Lunar Lions? The Sea of Tranquility Stars?) that even though Brian Roberts is not yet a Cub, some day he will come again and be traded to the Cubs or signed by Jim Hendry, IV. So yer saying this thread will continue unless Elsa crosses the seal? Yes. And remember: Only the penitent man will pass.

What if the rumors die down in Spring Training, but then heat up again at the trade deadline? Then we'll keep it going and shoot for 500 pages. It will be our responsibility (much like the Knight in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade) to protect this thread and keep it alive so long as we live - and Brian Roberts is not yet a cub. I envision the year 2078 when our children's children are on NSBB talking about baseball on played on the moon (The Lunar Lions? The Sea of Tranquility Stars?) that even though Brian Roberts is not yet a Cub, some day he will come again and be traded to the Cubs or signed by Jim Hendry, IV.

I would like to restate my point about why even though Soriano may not be the ideal #1 or #2 hitter, it's the best place to put him. I keep hearing how leadoff hitter is not a position and such, I agree to some degree. The reasons why Soriano and Roberts would need to be at the top of the order are different. 1. Soriano needs to be at/near the top to best suit his hitting ability. See more fastballs - hit more doubles/homeruns. His walk/strikeout totals won't vary, so his OBP will remain the same, but he will see many more pitches to drive increasing his SLG%/OPS numbers substantially. He would be just plain more effective with good hitters to protect him. 2. Roberts needs to bat at the top, 1 or 2 doesn't really matter which, as long as he is a table setter for Lee and Ramirez.

Was not Lee/Ramirez batting behind Pie? It's not just about the one batter behind him.

It is completely unrealistic to expect him to put up those kinds of numbers in his first real season in MLB. He was never really a good offensive player in MiLB until he got to see AAA pitching for the THIRD time. And to say that now he's going to mash at an above All-Star catcher norms in his first 500 AB taste of MLB pitching is basically preposterous and not to mention unprecedented.

I agree, no one knows if he would have still hit 3 HR's in the 5 hole, and I agree that he needs protection behind him, but that is why Geovany Soto will be there. This guy will prove to be a monster behind Soriano. In my opinion Soto will hit 25-30 HR's and bat .300. This is good protection for him. You can't bank on that happening. I hope he does well but it's more likely that he will struggle to hit 15-20 homeruns in his first real MLB season. His only power surge came in his third season against AAA pitching. But this is getting away from the point. I digress.

Well that's your argument for why as a leadoff hitter he gets more pitches to hit. If they werent afraid to walk him then they would just throw balls in the dirt all day no matter what order he is batting. I'm not saying pitchers shouldn't throw him junk when he bats early in the lineup - I'm saying they don't. It's not just him. Pitchers across the league throw more fastballs at the top of the order because they don't want to get behind in the count. This same gameplan is used on Soriano, even though it shoudn't.

I think it's a lame excuse. Give the guy enough AB's in a different spot in the lineup and he'll get comfortable. If he had his way he'd still be a second basemen. Players don't like change...Nothing new here. He'll be fine if he's not leading off. It's not about getting comfortable. It's about him being a flawed hitter. He's a fastball hitter. He takes advantage of pitcher's mistakes. He will see far less mistake fastballs left over the plate if he's batting behind the heart of the order. Does anyone have statistics broken down by pitch-type sorted year-to-year and by lineup position. I'm sure the stats will bear out that he sees more breaking balls and hits less home runs down in the order. Furthermore you'll see that he sees more fastballs at the top of the order.

Conversely, it's very likely he may have had 0 total home runs in the same game because he had no lineup protection. The whole point is that he needs to be protected in the lineup. It's not some myth that players need to be protected in a lineup. It's not mental makeup. The guy just doesn't get challenged as much when he has really good hitters batting behind him.

Yeah it was fun. Now were they all solo shots? I'm sure they were. If he was batting 5th then those 3 HR's would probably net him 7 RBI that game. Instead he probably got 4. You're completely missing the point. He wouldn't have had three homeruns because he probably wouldn't have seen those three fastballs and would more likely seen more crap he couldn't drive. With men on base pitchers can pitch him much more carefully. (EDIT: Because they know they have Soto, Theriot, Pie, etc. coming up next) When he leads off - and when he bats in front of the pitcher, #9 and #8 a pitcher can go right at him because he's not worried about him driving a three-run shot out of the park. OR when a pitcher sees Soriano up with runners on base he might pitch him less carefully being afraid to walk him and putting more people on base. And Soto up next will prove to be huge cuz that guy is going to be a monster this year. And if theres 2 outs and no one on, then the pitcher might pitch him very carefully so he doesnt hit a solo HR, and hope Soriano swings at misses at a bunch of balls in the dirt like he always does. There are arguments for both. I just think he would be way more valuable in the 5 hole. Are you talking about the Alfonso Soriano who strikes out 130 times and walks 30 times? Pitchers are worried about walking him?

Yeah it was fun. Now were they all solo shots? I'm sure they were. If he was batting 5th then those 3 HR's would probably net him 7 RBI that game. Instead he probably got 4. You're completely missing the point. He wouldn't have had three homeruns because he probably wouldn't have seen those three fastballs and would more likely seen more crap he couldn't drive. With men on base pitchers can pitch him much more carefully. (EDIT: Because they know they have Soto, Theriot, Pie, etc. coming up next) When he leads off - and when he bats in front of the pitcher, #9 and #8 a pitcher can go right at him because he's not worried about him driving a three-run shot out of the park.

Yeah it was fun. Now were they all solo shots? I'm sure they were. If he was batting 5th then those 3 HR's would probably net him 7 RBI that game. Instead he probably got 4. You're completely missing the point. He wouldn't have had three homeruns because he probably wouldn't have seen those three fastballs and would more likely seen more crap he couldn't drive. With men on base pitchers can pitch him much more carefully. When he leads off - and when he bats in front of the pitcher, #9 and #8 a pitcher can go right at him because he's not worried about him driving a three-run shot out of the park.

At the end of the year when I was watching Soriano leadoff, here is how the at bat went: -First pitch curve in the dirt landing a foot in front of the plate, swing and a miss striike one. -2nd pitch high fast ball above the head, swing and a miss strike two. -3rd pitch curve in the dirt in the opposite batters box, swing and a miss strike three. No matter if Soriano is batting 1st or 5th, the pitches he sees won't be that different because pitchers know how he hits. 1 at bat versus 600. Some pitchers are going to challenge him. And they are smart to do so. But the truth is that most pitchers give him too much credit and feed him fastballs. You obviously saw a sampling of pitchers who had better scouting reports than the vast majority.

I've always been against having Soriano bat first until very recently I heard a good argument in favor of it. Not sure who to quote as it could have been Murph or Stone. It's actually a lot more easy to understand than merely breaking down the statistics because its more tangible. The point that was made was that Soriano batting #1 gave him countless opportunities to see fastballs and not get pitched around with curves and sliders in the dirt constantly. Soriano is being protected by batting first. He's protected by our 2,3,4 hitters who have typically been our best hitters (especially Lee and Ramirez). If Lou was to move Soriano to the fifth spot where he'd be protected by Theriot, Soto, Pie, then pitchers could throw him junk all day and let him get himself out. There'd be no reason to keep trying to pepper fastballs by him all day. Honestly, if I was an opposing manager, I would never change my approach with Soriano because I don't think he has the discipline to not swing at the junk pitches even in the 1 spot. However, teams still throw him the fastballs and he keeps hitting them. Think about how many times you saw Soriano turn on a breaking ball last year (even a hanger for that matter). It's a rare occurance. He, like Sosa was, is very much a mistake-hitter. If you accidently leave a fastball middle-in or thereabouts...he turns his hands on it and puts it in the left field bleachers. Personally, I think his best spot in the lineup with this information in mind is #2. Either way you slice it he needs to be protected so whether he bats 1 or 2 is becoming more irrelevant to me. But in a perfect world I'd bat them Roberts, Soriano, Lee, Ramirez in order to give Soriano the occasional additional RBI opportunity. This seems to better explain why Soriano needs to be at the top of the order, doesn't it?

I thought people called David Wells 'Shrek'.

I found it amusing how many ex-Cubs and ex-Cub prospects are on that list. 16 by my count. Lotta ex-cub prospects that people were anxious about trading.

MLBTR and Rotoworld are talking about this 16 year-old from the DR that is projected to be the next great shortstop. The Indians are apparently working with his agent Scott Boras (shocker) to negotiate a signing bonus. What I have to wonder about is why a team with a good shortstop blocking a potentially better shortstop prospect is going after this guy...but the Cubs who have no hopeful shortstops anywhere in their organization aren't in on his signing. Apparently he's being touted as the next A-Rod or Miguel Cabrera. If anyone else knows more about this kid, and whether the hype is warranted, please feel free to interject. Here are some links on the guy: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/ Odds and Ends: Bedard, McPherson, Salcedo What's with this Edward Salcedo kid? The 16 year-old Boras-repped shortstop was linked to the Tribe but not signed as of February 3rd. From what I'm hearing it still sounds like he'll end up with Cleveland for around $3MM. http://www.perfectgame.org/players/playerprofile.aspx?ID=123749 "Edward Salcedo is a FA SS with a 6'3'', 190 lb. frame from La Vega, Dominican Republic. Big League body, strong and athletic. Smooth, easy defensive actions, easy plus arm, can really play SS. Aggressive swing, power projection, deep load from wide base, good bat speed, geared to drive fastballs, timing will be an issue. All the tools to be a top player. Potential 1st round type if in draft."

Is this a hint pc39? Has Sean had a physical in Baltimore yet? I am going to be disappointed if he is traded. We can assume you mean Sean Gallagher, right?

Why don't we just use that offer to get Jimmy Rollins? Our lineup will be super awesome then! Because the Phillies wouldn't take that offer, thats a horrible offer, but for some reason, Toronto has a thing for both Dempster and DeRosa, so them plus a solid pitching prospect may be enough for an injury prone #2. If thats not enough add Ceda. A starting 2B, a piece of poop, and 2 good minor leaguers for an injury prone #2 seems fair. I sensed a bit of sarcasm in his post. It's because Toronto loves players whose names begin with 'De'. Do we still have Bob Dernier to possibly throw in?

And a lot of fans of other teams are thinking the same thing. Fortunately for your sanity our offers would not have been able to hang with offers from the Sox and Yanks. ---Yeah I agree with that Meph but (although I don't know much about the players that the Mets gave up), I think we could have offered Minnesota more. I hope Santana hates New York and asks it get out of his contract, and eventually files for free agency. If you don't know anything about the players involved, how can you possibly say we could have offered more? Those four players could be better than our top four prospects for all you know. I didn't think any Cubs fans seriously thought we were contenders for Santana's services. I was pretty sure we were not getting him when I heard we weren't a team on the list he wished to be traded to. That might preclude ol' Jim from trading for him. You might want to wait and think about it before you make that call to his office.

Um, have you actually compared the 2 of them? Career numbers Furcal - .284 BA/.349 OBP/.407 SLG/94 OPS+ Theriot - .276 BA/.341 OBP/.379 SLG/83 OPS+ Furcal has never had a season with an OPS+ as low as Theriot's 72 in his only full year. And Theriot's career numbers are helped greatly by a huge 53-game season two years ago.\ Plus, Furcal is just three years older than Theriot. I'd happily take Raffy. People want to talk about a marginal upgrades...would you prefer to pay $13,000,000 in 2008 extra to have Furcal's numbers? Comparing both by 2007 and I see identical statistics. Yes, it was a down year for Furcal, but are you willing to gamble $13,000,000 that he's going to show a significant rebound at 30+ years old coming off of injuries? yes, 2007 was an anomaly. 2008 is a contract year. Furcal will have a great season. 2007 was a contract year for his former teammate Andruw Jones. How come he didn't have a great season? You can't say with all absolute certainty that Furcal WILL have a great season. There are only a few really special players that you can usually say that about (Pujols, Johan, etc.), and he's not that special. At his age, 2007 could be as easily the beginning of a downward trend as it could be an anomoly.

Um, have you actually compared the 2 of them? Career numbers Furcal - .284 BA/.349 OBP/.407 SLG/94 OPS+ Theriot - .276 BA/.341 OBP/.379 SLG/83 OPS+ Furcal has never had a season with an OPS+ as low as Theriot's 72 in his only full year. And Theriot's career numbers are helped greatly by a huge 53-game season two years ago.\ Plus, Furcal is just three years older than Theriot. I'd happily take Raffy. People want to talk about a marginal upgrades...would you prefer to pay $13,000,000 in 2008 extra to have Furcal's numbers? Comparing both by 2007 and I see identical statistics. Yes, it was a down year for Furcal, but are you willing to gamble $13,000,000 that he's going to show a significant rebound at 30+ years old coming off of injuries?

I think the Theriot love boiled down to "Cheap and bad beats expensive and bad". Yes, I also believe many overrated him (somewhat) on this board. But I think even the highest expectations for him amounted to no more than "almost good enough." Having a player like Theriot on the bench is a great idea-he's cheap, versatile, and for one day a week, could probably be semi productive. But he's simply not good enough to be a full-time major league shortstop, and the numbers he put up in every month other than July of '07 bear that out. I guess this would be a good argument for the people who would much rather have Rafael Furcal over Theriot. Even though Furcal is due like $15MM per year and had nearly identical statistics to Theriot. I'm all for the upgrade at SS, but teams aren't exactly throwing their shortstops out there for trade discussions.

Not sure if it's directed at me, but I bash Eckstein pretty regularly. I do so b/c a) he was a Cardinal, and b) he was terribly overhyped as a Cardinal. He's no Ryan Theriot, that's true. Course, I never said he was. I just said he got some awards (which I only referenced b/c UMFan posted that pic) he didn't deserve. Quite a stretch from one to the other there. I'm not so sure why everybody is bashing Theriot (and basically lumping him in with stiffs like Neifi Perez and Cesar Izturis). I know his second half wasn't good, but there was an awful lot of "The Riot" love in the first half of the season. Is it completely out of the question that the guy could actually improve in his second major league season? I mean, I'd love to get a better shortstop, but let's not forget who came before him (and how happy everyone was when he replaced them). There is still a reasonable chance that this guy pans out to be a "good-enough" everyday shortstop.

I pulled out MLB2k7 last night, and he's only ranked an 82. I really don't know why we're trying to trade for an 82. Purely out of curiousity, what is Mark DeRosa rated?