BigbadB

Amusingly enough, Derrek Lee was originally traded in a salary dump move by the Marlins. San Diego sent Lee and two minor leaguers for Kevin Brown. Choi and a minor leaguer to Florida for Lee. Salary dump.

I'll believe Patterson for Bradley when I see it. Okay, we got a great return on Choi. But, Florida was trying to dump Lee for 2 years with no takers. We lucked out on that deal.

Then stick Walker in front of Bradley and call it good.

And that pitching staff was entirely his staff. Like I said before, there are different ways to build a winner. Jim and Andy decided long ago this team's success would rely heavily on the arms of the pitching staff. When you make that decision, and forego many possible offensive upgrades along the way, you take certain risks, among them, that injuries are more prevelent among pitchers. And you also are at the mercy of your manager's ability to run that staff, without running it into the ground. Jim chose the strategy, Jim chose the people to carry out the strategy. When those people fail, he is held accountable. That is what management is all about. Perhaps if he chose to build a better all-around team, one that wasn't consistently average or below average in the runs scoring stat, and did away with the "it's all on the pitchers" theory, then he wouldn't have to endure the slings and arrows of those people who think it's absurd to accept a mediocre offense when your payroll affords you the ability to be great at both scoring runs and preventing runs. I don't disagree that it's his staff but he had no control over their injuries. He was caught off guard in 2004 with Wood's injury and Prior's freak injury. In 2005 it looked like a repeat performance and I do fault him for assuming pitchers (Wood in particular) would be healthy but there were other problems. The team went into 2005 without a legit RF'er (there's no excuse for that), the Bullpen was completely useless ( who would know that they would all be injured or just plain bad?), Nomar had a catastrophic injury, Corey completely failed, Walker got hurt, then much later Aramis was injured. I'm not saying he isn't to blame for some of that but much of the problems with last year's team had to do with failed pitching and using bench players because the intended starters were injured or ineffective. RF-- Legit gripe anytime Holly/Dubois were out there CF-- Patterson bombed and Hairston/Macias started 2B-- Walker was injured and Neifi started SS-- Nomar was injured and Neifi started Bullpen-- Borowski broke his hand in ST, LaTroy Choked, Remlinger fell off the map, and Chad Fox's arm fell off before they brought in/up Wuertz, Novoa, Ohman etc Starters-- Same deal with Wood and Prior caught a liner. Koronka, Mitre, Williams, Rusch--a hodgepodge Let me put it this way, the Sox would have been no where without their pitching last year. They stayed healthy and were lucky to boot. However, the Sox did not have a well rounded offense. If a team is pitching dependent (like the Cubs) problems will be exposed when they don't pitch well and don't execute (good pitching can sometimes overcome stupid mistakes). At the same time, many of the batters Hendry was relying on either didn't produce or got injured for stretches of the season. Like I said earlier, if Hendry goes into 2006 without addressing those problems he should be crticized. right now I expect him to do all the things he said he would this offseason Attempting to mirror the 2005 White Sox is not the best of plans. Every team has a different make up. Each team has its strengths and weaknesses. Utilizing the strengths while hiding the weaknesses is exactly what the White Sox did last year. They didn't bat guys with .330+ OBP's at the bottom of the order, they hit them at the top. The Cubs, day in and day out put garbage OBP guys at the top of the order. They didn't utilize a strength, they utilized a weakness. A week goes by, two weeks go by, and Patterson isn't getting any better. Walker has been a respectable lead off hitter everywhere he's been. He didn't bat lead off on the 2005 Cubs. Why? Later in the season, Matt Murton was blazing the ball and his OBP was practically twice as good as Neifi or Macias, yet Macias and Neifi got the top of the order at bats. Why? The White Sox put decent OBP guys in front of the meat of their order and they maximized their limited offensive potential. The Cubs did not. In the end, the White Sox pitching stayed healthy and the team won a lot of close games to win their division. Same thing that the Cubs did in '03. Since '03, the Cubs have added more than 20m to the payroll and they have regressed. The pitching has regressed because of injury. I won't complain about that. The offense has regressed because they fail to put a team on the field that has the capability of scoring a lot of runs. The Cubs seem to have this appeal for driving a guys value into the ground, and THEN trading him or letting them go for little to no return. Farnsworth, Sosa, Patterson, Dubois, Juan Cruz, Choi, Hawkins, Nomar, Hairston if he is sent packing, etc....... They need to change this line of thinking. It isn't working.

Goony and Brinoch have made very good arguments here. I've really enjoyed reading this thread. Of course, I'd rather read that the Cubs have signed players that will help this team more, but I suppose that will have to be another day. I said at the beginning that I would hold off final judgment on Hendry until this offseason was over. However, that does not necessarily mean that I will hold off judgment on each individual move made or NOT made. Castillo would have been nice, but he wasn't necessarily on my radar. I'm fine with Walker. I'd also be fine with Cedeno if we got that good power bat in RF, a good CF and a good SS, one of which is an exceptional lead off hitter. Signing Rusch was probably an insurance move. Insurance in case Williams was to be used in a trade, and insurance in case Wood is not ready to go in April. That move was probably the move that bothered me the least. The continued rostering of Jose Macias baffles me beyond belief. The Scott Eyre signing was bad. No doubt, we needed relievers. Better ones than we had last year. But, we had a plethora of young and cheap relievers, along with prospects and major league trade commodity to upgrade the pen, like Patterson, Hairston and Walker if he is truly on the market. Rather than blow up the budget on an overpriced market, why not offer trades to small market teams worried about losing their arby eligible bullpen arms? Would Florida have turned down Novoa and Wuertz for Mota? Or Novoa and Wellemeyer? Pick and choose an arm or two to throw at another team for another guy like Mota. Why not consider taking a look at Ramiro Mendoza? Fact is, between Rusch, Eyre and Howry, they spent 10m on the bullpen when they might have gotten away with only spending 2-3m by trading surplus. I'm not the slightest bit convinced that Scott Eyre will be a better reliever next year than Will Ohman. The Bob Howry signing is okay, but the money is once again horrible. The Neifi signing made little to no sense. D'Angelo Jimenez will make 3x less than Neifi and can play all the positions Neifi can, and he hits better. Why panic and re-sign Neifi so quickly. Heck, let someone else panic and take him. He might have been worth a supplemental pick if someone wanted him bad enough. Giles ignored. It could go either way. It could be that Brian Giles called Jim Hendry on the day he filed free agency and told Jim "don't bother knockin'." Why Giles would do that would be beyond me. Why Jim Hendry wouldn't at one point say that they were very interested, but Giles didn't want to come here is beyond me as well. It would certainly take the public pressure off him. Bringing back Neifi, letting people know he's interested in guys like Soriano, Jacque Jones, Preston Wilson and the like only further proves that they value tools over anything else. "Catch the ball" tells me that they believe defense will win them more games than a good offense. It's not too late to salvage this offseason. Scrap the tools ideas like Soriano, and stick with Walker and go get Bradley. Since they are committed to Furcal, might as well go the distance. The mere thought of Neifi Perez playing SS and hitting at the top of the order again next year makes the hair on my skin stand straight up. No one has to agree with my opinions or judgments on the deals that have been made so far. That's why we have this message board in the first place. To discuss stuff like that. I don't understand in the slightest why anyone would expect us all to wait until the end of the 2006 season before we make any wisecracks about the assembly of the 2006 team.

Now that I think more deeply into this, I wonder how determined Green Bay will really be to win this game. With one of the worst records in football, holding out for the #1 pick (Reggie Bush?) wouldn't be the worst thing they did. Just make it look good and keep it close? Or is the rivalry too important for Green Bay to just let the Bears go off and win the division? That much more important than the #1 pick? Tillman does get burned on occasion. As mentioned previously, every corner gets burned at one point or another. Reading the minds of quarterbacks and receivers and their routes is tough business. My take on Tillman is the Tampa game was the first game where he got burned on a play, but didn't have that "big" play to balance the scales. In the previous games, I felt he did something big after a gaff. But, that's just me.

I actually feel less comfortable about this game than I did for the Carolina and Tampa Bay games (Carolina losing won me an authentic Bears jersey and Tampa Bay losing won me "Rockzilla" at Red Lobster). If Orton doesn't find some receivers downfield, I really worry about this game. A one dimensional offensive attack is too predictable. If Orton is ineffective in the first half, I hope Lovie will consider making a change. I'd like to see Orton succeed, but I worry his ineffectiveness last week will have a negative effect on him each time he drops back to pass. All those sideline dumps to Justin Gage worry me as well, since those are the easiest to pick off and return for touchdowns. Green Bay is 2-9, but they might be the best 2-9 team in the history of the NFL.

Problem with the Giants is that they are tremendously old, and could break down. Vizquel will be 39 in April Bonds will be 42 in July (yeesh, I'm only 6 months older than this guy) Alou will be 40 in July Matheny just recently turned 35 Durham just turned 34

Didn't I hear somewhere that the Marlins were NOT going to blow up their roster? Sure looks like they are. A quick comb of their current roster shows that LoDuca, Castillo, Pierre and Cabrera are basically the only offensive players left, and three of those guys are being shopped. I will say that they have gotten some pretty good young players in return and they probably won't stay down too long. Cabrera, Hermida, Mike Jacobs, Jason Stokes and Hanley Ramirez is a nice group of young prospects that are all very close to ML ready.

I've got the Dodgers and the Giants battling it out for 1st place next year, depending on how the rest of the offseason goes.

Not nearly enough production? Well, the OBP is definitely there. The speed is there. The power is there. How do they not have nearly enough production? Cruz is a 20 HR guy Bradley is turning into a 25 HR guy Kent is a 30+ HR guy Drew is a 30+ HR guy Furcal will give them another 10 They can look for someone to fill 3b and behind the plate if one of the kids isn't quite ready. That's plenty of production.

Why do you say that? Moving Kent and his defensive liability to 1st would be a good move. Izturis and Furcal make for a decent middle infield. I think the Dodgers are in pretty good shape. They have tons of trade commodity. If I'm the Dodgers, I'd push for Furcal. I'd keep Bradley. I'd trade Izturis to Florida with a pitching prospect for Castillo. Furcal, Bradley, Drew, Kent, Cruz, Joel Guzman 3b, Izturis, Navarro C without trading Izturis Furcal, Castillo, Drew, Kent, Bradley, Cruz, 3b, C That's an exciting offense. With all of their stud pitchers drawing nearer to major league ready, they can save money on pitching and improve the offense. Edwin Jackson, Joel Hanrahan, Greg Miller and Chad Billingsley are all getting close. The Dodgers also have a fine group of infielders in Delwyn Young, Andy LaRoche, Joel Guzman and James Loney that teams would be interested in acquiring in trade. I see the Dodgers lining up for NL West dominance once again.

I still think Hendry should look into trading for Vazquez and Tracy from the Diamondbacks. We'll take Vazquez and his big contract off their hands if they give us Tracy as well. They have a surplus in the outfield as it is. I like that a whole lot more than Soriano and Mench. Not sure if Vazquez would accept the trade to Chicago, but it's more than half way to where he'd prefer to be.

Ugh. 267-363 and rarely caught probably don't belong in the same sentence.

It's a good question especially in light of the new developments but I don't want Nomar back. I still think the Cubs need to concern themselves with guys who are both good offensive and defensive players. Nomar (and Todd Walker) are liabilites. I'd like to get a SS and let Cedeno play second. Or perhaps swing a deal for Castillo and play Ronnie at SS. How do you know Cedeno will be good offensively? The sample size isn't big enough for me. If he is horrible offensively, would it have been a good trade off to give up Walker's bat for Cedeno's defense? Nomar would have loved to come back. Management basically booted him out the door. As others have mentioned here in past Nomar threads, he's probably not a good fit for 2nd base considering his arm angle and pivot throws. I did want to see the Cubs bring Nomar back. But, that ship has sailed. The article I read right after the season ended basically stated that Nomar and Mia loved Chicago, and he wanted to return to the Cubs. Loved the fans. He would have been open to a position change. Whatever would help the team. Nomar's cost would likely have been half of what Furcal will cost, and for 1 year rather than 5. I understand the need to improve defensively. As long as you don't lose anything offensively in improving defense, I'm fine with that. This team was worse offensively last year than they were defensively.

I used it as a sample. But, Rumor Central takes their information from newspaper articles all over the country. Every link that ever gets provided here can be found on ESPN Insider. Sure, some of it is rumor, some is fact, and some is just wishful thinking. Rumor Central is where you can find that the Cubs are very interested in Furcal. Where did they get that information? The same place you would find information about the Cubs having interest in Giles..... If they had interest in Giles. The feelings don't always have to be mutual. When the Marlins came along a few years ago and threw 10m on the table for Pudge, how much interest would he have had in being a Marlin prior to that moment they blew every other offer out of the water? Read my entire post. Don't just look for one thing and assume that I live and die by what is said in Rumor Central.

And there you go again. Sensitivity is not a baseball discussion. I certainly don't need you to tell me what I am or am not. I'm not sensitive. I'm angry. I'm angry that you know the rules for posting on this site, yet you ignore them. When you ignore them, the guy next to you thinks it's okay to ignore them, and his fifty friends then think it's okay to ignore them, next thing you know, there is chaos. Chaos belongs on that "other" site. People at this site came here to get away from that. Some even pay money to not have to listen to bickering, name calling, and general non baseball related material. What I'm saying is stop with the insults. I came back from my holiday trip and every thread I opened had personal attacks and insults, and I'm tired of it. I happen to respect you as a poster here. I can respect differing opinions. I can respect that you stick to your guns. But, what I don't respect are jabs and insults simply because someone doesn't agree with your line of thinking. I was extremely angry at your comment a week ago about "daily whining". A direct attack at those who don't agree with you. Keep it baseball. Further attacks on a poster or a group of posters will likely result in penalty.

Honestly, how do we know Hendry showed no interest in Giles? If this was reported, or Hendry commented I apologize, this is an honest question. Just because it was written about doesn't mean he wasn't interested. Hendry could have called Giles and Giles could have simply said, "Hey, I appreciate the offer but I'm not interested in moving to Chicago." I don't know. But, since we hear just about every little tidbit of this or that, I don't know why we wouldn't have at least heard that Hendry would be slightly interested. Maybe I'm way off base. Rumor Central on ESPN never listed the Cubs next to Brian Giles name as an interested party. If I was Brian Giles, would I want to come to the Cubs? Maybe not. They've already got their token playoff appearance this decade. But at the same time, Giles will be hurting his own lifetime stats playing at Petco, and I'm not sure San Diego will see a pennant again this decade. We hear that Hendry is interested in Mench, Soriano, Bradley, Pierre, Furcal, Eyre, Howry and just about every other free agent, but nary a word about Brian Giles. We know Brian Giles is a base clogger. We know he can't catch the ball as good as Neifi or Bradley or Furcal. We also heard Hendry say that he didn't want to get into a bidding war for Giles, yet he's in the middle of a bidding war for Furcal for more years and now possibly more money. Giles has always killed the ball in Wrigley. He'd get to do that 81 times a year, and when he isn't home, he's spending most of his time hitting in GAP, PNC, Minute Maid, Miller and the new Busch. Offense city. And he would have gotten to hit right between Lee and Aramis. Maybe he didn't have fond memories of playing with Aramis. I'm not against a Furcal signing by any means. I would have loved to have both, but money probably wasn't there for both. In that case, make offers for both players. Go as high as you can for each one and the one who signs first is who you get. I don't know that Giles didn't want to come here and I don't know that Hendry didn't want him here. I do know that when a team wants a guy, you usually hear about it somewhere. The Cubs may be getting played in this whole Furcal fiasco. He may end up driving up Atlanta's price so he can go back home. All that time and effort for a guy who had no intentions of coming here. All I was asking was for the same attention to Giles. If neither came, so be it. At least we knew he tried.

That would have been a pretty good line up. Patterson and Novoa, Wuertz or Welly to LA for Bradley. Walker and Cedeno to Florida. Resign Nomar and throw a ton of money at Giles. Trade prospects for relievers. The entire line up is .350+ OBP, good power, speed and improved defense. Done.

Furcal loves Atlanta. Giles loves San Diego. Hendry has aggressively pursued Furcal. Hendry has not even remotely pursued Giles. What would have been the harm if Hendry aggresively pursued Giles? Was he afraid he might lure Giles away from San Diego? Oh, the horror. Or did he have some particular reason to not, at minimum, help drive up Giles price even more. The Giles offer from Toronto can't be used as an excuse in any way. It's another league, another country and a team that will probably never be much of a pennant threat as long as they share a division with the Yankees and Boston. I don't disrespect your opinion in anyway. But what I take offense to is "all that fussing and ripping for nothing" comment. It isn't needed. It isn't welcome. If Hendry out of the blue signed Giles to big money, I wouldn't be on here saying "I told you so" or "Giles fans can shut up now" or whatever the hidden agenda message he was attempting to relay. There are other message boards for that. If someone is tired of listening to me clamor for a Giles signing, ignore me. I've been waiting for a Cubs World Series for 42 years and I've seen a lot of bad baseball in that span. With 100m to spend on a team, I see no reason why they couldn't offer up 12-14m of that for the most obvious, glaring hole this team has had since Ron Santo left. I'm sorry if you don't agree that Brian Giles should have been the most sought after player this offseason. But save the "all that fussing and ripping for nothing" holier than thou crap. That's all I'm trying to say. I think the Cubs can still win without landing Giles. But, I think it becomes harder to do. I certainly won't be calling anyone out if we don't make the playoffs with Furcal, whereas we might have with Giles. I'll just be that much madder at Cubs management for not aggressively pursuing the players that could help this team win the most. Interestingly enough, we now have Dusty commenting that this team will not be able to win with two rookies in the line up. Huh. Murton is a given. Apparently, Neifi Perez will assume 2nd base when Walker gets traded. Pardon me, while I go finish losing my mind.

Wouldn't Jerome Williams classify as a front of the rotation starter for the Phillies? :D

So, the Cubs should have never even bothered looking at a free agent because of his desire to stay where he's at? How many stories have I read now that Furcal wants to stay in Atlanta because he's in love with Bobby Cox? Should Hendry have never even hinted that he was interested in Furcal, just the same way he never hinted he had any interest in Giles? I mean, both have made it known they would prefer to stay where their at. Giles really blew my doors off. I was pretty convinced he wouldn't come back to San Diego. With the way management treated him, Hoffman and Ramon Hernandez, I'm not sure why he would. Right now, I'm penciling San Diego in for 4th place next year even with the announcement that Giles is coming back. The Dodgers will be better. The Giants will be better. Arizona will be better. Take away a few of those game that they won in a row in the heart of summer, and this team is under .500 for the season. They have 15m rapped up in Woody Williams and Chan Ho Park for 2006. I'll readily admit that I was wrong in commenting that Giles would not be back in San Diego. But, I don't need you rubbing mine or anyone else's noses in it. If the Cubs were in negotiations to get him and he wouldn't come anyway, then I could live with it. The fact Hendry showed no interest whatsoever doesn't make you right at all. It just shows Hendry is so much more interested in a lead off hitter than a good heart of the order hitter, that he ignored the one player who would have given the Cubs the most improvement in offensive production. With guys like Bradley, Pierre, Wilkerson and Lugo available for potential lead off hitters, finding a lead off hitter was not going to be nearly as difficult as finding someone who could even remotely come close to Brian Giles production. "I told you so's" have nothing to do with "baseball discussion". Brag to your family if you must.

I do remember that Tex was speculated as the guy the Cubs would get in June of the following year. They ended up with some Prior guy instead. I seem to recall that Tex broke his leg or something, which dropped his value a hair.

Doesn't Mabry make Bigbie a bit redundant? I would guess that a trade for Bigbie makes Hairston's days numbered, which then also leaves the Cubs too thin in CF when they dump Patterson, Hairston and Greenberg, all of which seem like they are on their way out of Chicago. If LA hangs on to Bradley, who other than Pierre is available to play CF? Pierre will cost a bundle once he's the only CF left on the trade market. Will LA trade Bradley to the Cubs if Furcal signs with the Cubs? After losing out on Giles, they seem a little more intent on keeping Bradley. Wilkerson is a possibility, but they want Cedeno. I want Cedeno if we are moving Walker. To me, Bigbie seems just like the type of guy Baker would put in LF in place of Murton because of the "need" for a lefty, as well as the "veteran" leadership Bigbie would bring. Mabry wouldn't displace Murton, but with Dusty, I wouldn't be so sure about Bigbie. That was a windy way of saying no thanks to Larry Bigbie.

See my edited post above. You left out a lot. With Delgado, Manny, Beltran, & Wright they would have about the best middle of the line up in the NL, too. Omar is putting together a very good team. That one would be almost as good as a Bradley, Lee, Giles, A. Ramirez middle of the line up. :wink: