BigbadB

good one -- it's been widely reported that other mods have already been considering this The difference is they are only considering it. I'm threatening to take action. :wink:

Come on, people. Let's keep it civil or I'll lock the thread.

Nice to see Patterson really does take it seriously. I think he could be a big help in 2008. It's foolish to own up to your mistakes. Look how well Roger Clemens is doing by claiming innocence of any wrongdoing. Deny, deny, deny!

Wow. I just looked at Florida's roster. Luis Gonzalez? Uggh. Are they moving Willingham to 3b? Cody Ross and Willingham would have made for a nice platoon in LF. Instead, Gonzalez will suck against RH and LH pitching. Guess Florida just wanted a veteran name to throw into the line up. Stupid.

I like Ross, but I don't see him going anywhere. He's Florida's insurance policy if Maybin isn't ready. That De Aza clown has proven he doesn't belong. Nothing more to see there.

I don't believe the Cubs can trade Cintron until June..although this may not apply to minor league contracts.....??? I don't think that rule applies to minor league deals, I'm not sure though. Anyone know for certain? I would find your scenario highly unlikely. The Cubs were rumored to be interested in Cintron several weeks back as a back up to Theriot if Cedeno was involved in a deal to Baltimore for Roberts. If anything, the Roberts deal is probably getting fresh legs. Also, if the Roberts deal is completely off, I don't see Hendry swooping in and pulling the rug out from under MacPhail by signing Cintron. The Cubs don't need Cintron if they have Theriot and Cedeno. My guess is Gallagher, Murton and Cedeno will be in a package for Roberts, with someone else included to get MacPhail to sign off.

That's quite likely. The dude has very little power. Willy Taveras Light.

Hmm. I guess I didn't realize Willits is a switch hitter. Not that this would change anything. I'd rather have Pie spending most of the time in CF.

I wouldn't mind Willits as a right handed counterpart to Pie, but that's about it. And I wouldn't move Soriano out of the lead off spot for Willits. Assuming the Cubs did land Willits and Roberts without giving up Pie (which shouldn't be a problem considering Anaheim doesn't need another outfielder and there is enough in the coffer for Roberts without having to include Pie), I'd go something like this: Soriano Roberts Lee Ramirez Fukudome Soto Pie/Willits Theriot/DeRosa That's some pretty respectable OBP from the bottom spots in the order for Soriano to drive in. Not really sure how Lou would line them up.

A lot of us are taking some precaution in stating how badly we do or don't want Roberts here, depending on what it costs the Cubs in prospects. For the right price, he'd be a nice addition. For the wrong price, I want nothing to do with him.

Not always. And that Modzilla dude makes everything he does very obvious to everyone. Modzilla also doesn't care whose feelings get hurt. That's one ruthless dude. Punctual also, I might add.

Admins and Mods normally attempt to handle personal attacks privately. Please feel free to notify us when you see one. We aren't everywhere all the time. Thanks!

When the Reds get Corey Patterson, Dusty will point out Corey's skin color as the reason he is getting more playing time than Bruce. I can't have a white guy running around the outfield in the heat of Summer.

Umm...why? If Roberts leads off with a walk, Theriot can bunt him over to second. Then you've got your big bats coming up to hit him in. That's how baseball works. Seriously? HR>>>>>>>>>>>>>walk, bunt guy over, maybe production guy will drive him in. The best production guys in the world only have about a 33% success rate. A HR is a guaranteed run. A walk, single, HBP, CI or any other form of reaching first based guarantees you nothing. And if you are seriously going to bunt Roberts to 2b, you have just rendered his speed useless. Might as well just bat DeRosa 1st and waste the out Theriot is going to make to move DeRosa to 2nd. And this is one of the exact reasons Theriot should bat 8th. Why on earth should the Cubs accept making an out with the #2 hitter by bunting a guy over to 2nd as an in game strategy. It's a horrible strategy, for the most part.

I don't understand where you gather this information. Soriano stole 41 bases in '06 and 30 in '05. A guy with leg issues doesn't even attempt to steal bases. Soriano averaged 99 RBI in '05 and '06, mainly as a lead off hitter. If you put competent guys at 7th and 8th in a Cubs line up, Soriano would easily challenge hitting over 100 RBI batting in the #1 spot in the order. What more could anyone want batting lead off than a guy who could start a game off 1-0 with a home run, can rip a double and score on a Roberts or Lee base hit and can drive in the guys at the bottom of the order.

Come one. Even you have a better understanding and appreciation of OBP than Dusty Baker had. Batting Corey Patterson at the top of the batting order= very bad Batting Neifi Perez at the top of the batting order= very bad

It's good news if he eventually sells the team. So, it's good news. Yeah. A new stadium is probably the profit he was looking for.

I'm game for that.

Probably midseason. He can't "Save" the Reds if he's with them for a whole season.

Every team should have the opportunity to bat Corey Patterson and Neifi Perez at the top of their order for half a season. It's an amazing experience.

I agree that Roberts and Soriano can both score runs, which is what you want your top of the order guys to do. BUT, Soriano isn't a type of player that you use to score runs. He is the type of player that drives in runs. So he would be much more valuable lower in the lineup. If Roberts and Soriano are equal in run scoring, then DeRosa and Soriano are not equal in run producing. So it comes down to who would you rather have driving in runs in the 5 hole, Soriano or DeRosa? Plus, a lot of Soriano's runs last year came from HRs, like a third of them. Those could still be runs, but also more RBI for him. While Roberts, without the HRs, can still get more runs than Soriano just by getting on base more. Are you suggesting DeRosa plays SS if the Cubs get Roberts? I'm game. I think you are mistaken if you think Soriano would bat 5th. Fukudome will bat 5th, because Fukudome's existence on this roster was the extreme need by Cubs management to get a lefty power bat. Soriano moves all the way to 6th in the order if they move Soriano out of the lead off spot. Between Lee, Ramirez, Fukudome and Soto and Pie, there should be plenty of power in the middle and bottom half of the order. Put DeRosa at SS, and there's even more power. Soriano bats "lead off" in the first inning. That's it. That's it, except for a few other random times it might happen in a game. There is no guarantee that he'll start off an inning at any other time in a game. And when you move Soriano out of the lead off spot and move him all the way down to the 6 spot, you are taking the bat out of Soriano's hands completely for appromimately 20 games worth of at bats. That's an extremely significant amount of at bats. 2/3 of a month, and doesn't include the games he's given off for rest or to heal an injury. Cubs in 2007: Batting 1st: 765 PA Batting 6th: 682 PA Cubs in 2006: Batting 1st: 755 PA Batting 6th: 668 Cubs in 2005: Batting 1st: 754 PA Batting 6th: 671 See the pattern? By dropping Soriano from 1st to 6th, you're essentially taking the bat out of his hands entirely for the equivilent of 20 games. Wouldn't it make a whole lot more sense to keep the bat in Soriano's hands AND bat Roberts 2nd?

At least we have gotten to a point where there is an actual discussion. And before I supply the stats once again, I wish to go on record that I have 2 kids and I work for a living. :wink: The most important job of any guy that hits at the top of a line up is to score runs. OBP is a very important stat. The higher OBP you have, the more likely you are to score a lot of runs. OBP isn't the only stat, however. SLG is also a great stat, whether you bat at the top of the order, the middle of the order or bottom of the order. The more power you hit for, the more likely you are to score runs and drive in runs. While it is true that Soriano was hurt this past year, I'm not sure why that should lead anyone to believe he is suffering from a loss of speed. One could argue that his injury last year hampered his speed, thus a decrease in SB and runs scored. No one would argue that a hamstring problem will hamper someone's speed. If Lou Piniella wants Brian Roberts so that he can move Soriano down in the line up, and Lou then bats Brian Roberts 1st and Ryan Theriot 2nd, then I would have to declare that Piniella is an idiot. The difference between the lead off hitter last year and the #6 hitter is 83 plate appearances. By moving Soriano down to the 6th spot in the line up, you are essentially benching Soriano for 20 games worth of at bats. Is Ryan Theriot batting 2nd worth benching Soriano for 20 games worth of at bats? Is Brian Roberts batting 1st instead of 2nd worth benching Soriano for 20 games worth of at bats? Finally, stealing bases is a luxury. It's all about scoring runs. Alfonso Soriano scores more runs than Roberts. Period. Even with a poorer OBP and even with a bad hamstring, Soriano still scores more runs than Roberts. Roberts could have stolen 100 bases last year to Soriano's zero bases and with the same amount of at bats, I'd bet Soriano still scores more runs than Roberts. Why? Because Soriano drives himself in often enough (HR) to make up for the lack of stolen bases. In the end, top of the order guys are supposed to score runs. Roberts and Soriano can both do just that.

I'd be willing to drop some coin that if the Cubs got Roberts, that Soriano bats 1 and Roberts bats 2. It makes the most sense whether you agree or not. Am I a Soriano lover in the lead off spot? No. Am I against trading for Roberts? Depends on what is being given up to get him. For the right parts, I'd love to see Roberts batting 2nd for this team. If the Cubs got Roberts, the Cubs would have arguably the best 1/2 punch in MLB. I have pointed out several times how Soriano is a better lead off hitter and not once have you acknowledged that you've read, tried to understand the stats I've provided or provided any solid evidence that batting Roberts first would somehow make the Cubs a better team. Give me one example. Just one. Soriano scores more runs per at bat and he hits for much more power. It's all well and good that you wish to offer your opinion, but if you refuse to read the opinions of others, or at least acknowledge that you've read the opinions of others, what makes you think we should read yours? I have responded to you on at least 6 occasions, and not once have you acknowledged or responded to my posts. The fact remains, Soriano is one of the most productive lead off hitters in the game today, and Brian Roberts also places well in that category, but not as high as Soriano. FACT!

Give them a venue with a retractable roof to keep that awful humidity out and it might generate a decent enough increase in the turn out.

Part of me says this is the perfect opportunity to beef up the major league roster and GO FOR IT! Another part of me says do not empty the farm for Roberts. Mainly because I believe they can go for it AND continue NL dominance for future years with a fully stocked farm. With that said, Ceda would not be on my untouchable list. A few years back, we had a fairly untouchable reliever by the name of Francis Beltran. They did eventually move him in the deal that netted Nomar, but Beltran turned into quite the bust. Just a year or so before Beltran reached semi-untouchable status, the Cubs had a reliever they were pretty high on in Felix Sanchez. He amounted to nothing. I would most certainly include Ceda in a deal for Roberts. It's what other guys would be required in the deal that would make it or break it for me. Maybe Hendry calls a guy like Ceda untouchable to increase his value in trade. It would be a nice change of pace to boost the value of prospects rather than hinder them.