CUBZ99

And if Cedeno ends up being a mediocre offensive player (.260/.320), where does that help them in the grand scheme? Depends on who Hendry picks up to fill the remaining open spots in the lineup. If Cedeno is hitting .260 in the 8th hole, the Cubs can live with that IMO.

A double play combo of Furcal and Cedeno would certainly make for a formidible double play combination and would be a huge step towards Hendry's goal of upgrading defensively.

What worries me is Hendry wants to overpay average to below average players. Furcal, Preston Wilson, Encarnacion, Jacque Jones, Pierre, Rusch... Where did you see that Hendry wants to overpay for Preston Wilson, Encarnacion or Jacque Jones?? Also, why do you think that Rusch is not worth $3M a year?

The White Sox scored less runs in '05 than '04, and at last check didn't score any more consistently than the Cubs's offense. so you are saying that having scott lead off in 2005 didnt make a huge difference in the white sox's success in 05? i think the sox players would beg to differ with you. It did make a difference. They scored less runs. Of course, the pitching was good enough to win well over 90 games... maybe its not how many runs you score but when you score them. of course they had great pitching but having a leadoff guy who can get on base and steal was more important to their offense than having carlos lee who drove in a ton of runs. it is a question of a balanced lineup imo. I happen to believe that their success had a lot more to do with their team ERA going from 4.91 to 3.61, than their runs scored going from 865 to 741. But that's just me. The Sox didn't win because they weakened their lineup, they won because their pitching was great. You still have to score to win and imo a guy who gets on base at a .350 clip right off the bat is in no way shape or form a negative to the offense. It is when he's replacing a guy who got on base at a .366 clip (and slugged .525). The White Sox had a leadoff hitter in 2004 that go on base at a .366 clip with a .525 ? :shock: I didn't know that. but if that is the case you make a valid point.

The White Sox scored less runs in '05 than '04, and at last check didn't score any more consistently than the Cubs's offense. so you are saying that having scott lead off in 2005 didnt make a huge difference in the white sox's success in 05? i think the sox players would beg to differ with you. It did make a difference. They scored less runs. Of course, the pitching was good enough to win well over 90 games... maybe its not how many runs you score but when you score them. of course they had great pitching but having a leadoff guy who can get on base and steal was more important to their offense than having carlos lee who drove in a ton of runs. it is a question of a balanced lineup imo. I happen to believe that their success had a lot more to do with their team ERA going from 4.91 to 3.61, than their runs scored going from 865 to 741. But that's just me. The Sox didn't win because they weakened their lineup, they won because their pitching was great. You still have to score to win and imo a guy who gets on base at a .350 clip right off the bat is in no way shape or form a negative to the offense.

I'll take both for a year anyday. I'm sure DLEE and Aram wouldn't mind having a couple guys that get on base ahead of them.

When is the last time that Hendry vastly overpaid for a big time free agent? Sure he slightly over pays on 1 to 3 year deals, but I can't think of a deal of 4 or more years that he has overpaid.

Glad to hear that the Cubs are serious about persuing Furcal. If the Cubs sign Furcal does that end their pursuit of Pierre or another CF possibly Lofton or Damon? I'm hoping that is not the case. It would be nice for Hendry to actually prove that he wants guys that get on base. A combo of any two of the three would make a nice improvement at the top of the order.

Point well taken.

He is arbitration eligible, so he could be non-tendered, but I doubt the Cubs will do that. I expect him to be on the roster for '06. Hairston isn't going to be an all-star or anyone's favorite player, but the guy brings speed and some versatility. He also can get on base better than most Cubs can. He had a down year. If he can perform more like he did in '04, he can be valueable. I don't want him in the starting line-up, however. He best serves a team as a super-sub. Plus, if he isn't starting, the likelihood of Macias being off the team goes up. 8) That would be the only thing about Hairston coming back that sounds good. I was really looking forward to seeing what Hairston could do when the Cubs got him, but he was less than impressive.

You mean Hollandsworth, look at the game logs from early on, it was a one sided platoon. It was a stupid idea to have a 4th OF'er as a starting LF'er. It's not like he didn't play. DuBois got 142 at-bats. They tried working him in there and he didn't produce after April. People want to complain about prospects getting no shot. Yet when the prospects get a shot and fail they like to wash their hands and blame it on Dusty and Hendry. If there's blame, it's on Hendry's poor assessment of DuBois. Of course, many had the same poor assessment. Jesus Christ. Can you make a single point without incorporating some levle of poster bashing? Yes, you're correct, there are those who may have overvalued Dubois. Then again, there are legitimate arguments that Dubois was not handled properly. Not to mention myriad other aspects/issues/components of the Dubois situation. But, you like to skew issues into black and white arguments in support of your often weak positions. Every freaking post doesn't need to have a shot at other posters, either specifically or generally. Do you think you are perhaps being a little overly sensitive? #-o You complain about his statement that many had a poor assesment, and then make a statement like Pot meet kettle. Not even remotely germane to what I referenced in my post. So, the over used and unclever "pot meet kettle" remark isn't applicable. Further, oversensitivity is not an issue because many times, my beliefs don't apply to his remarks. However, I fail to see why anyone needs to repeatedly point fingers at other posters. You can make your point without doing so. If you make it part of your common posting habits, it demonstrates that you are more interested in pissing people off than simply supporting your position. Then why do you continue to try to make smart remarks? I was just pointing out the irony of your post. You may not agree with his remarks but to act like an immature 12 year old because he does not agree with you doesn't make any sense. In the post you refered to all he said was that many poster made a poor assessment, you have to be pretty sensitive to believe that is "poster-bashing"

Can't trade Ronny! Who will start at 2B after Todd Walker is dealt? :wink: You wink, but its true. They would have to move Hairston to 2B and then who would play CF? :wink: Why, Kenny Lofton, of course. :twisted: Unless Cedeno was part of a trade for a CF! I think Cedeno will be a 270/330 type of hitter. If he can play defense, which I think he can, I'd like to just put him at SS and have Walker at 2nd. What worries me about this idea is what kind of SS Hendry would get to back him up because we all know that Baker would play the Enrique Wilson types out there instead when given a chance. Is Hairston coming back next year? :pukel:

Definitely wouldn't want him unless the Yankees were going to pick up half his contract.

You mean Hollandsworth, look at the game logs from early on, it was a one sided platoon. It was a stupid idea to have a 4th OF'er as a starting LF'er. It's not like he didn't play. DuBois got 142 at-bats. They tried working him in there and he didn't produce after April. People want to complain about prospects getting no shot. Yet when the prospects get a shot and fail they like to wash their hands and blame it on Dusty and Hendry. If there's blame, it's on Hendry's poor assessment of DuBois. Of course, many had the same poor assessment. Jesus Christ. Can you make a single point without incorporating some levle of poster bashing? Yes, you're correct, there are those who may have overvalued Dubois. Then again, there are legitimate arguments that Dubois was not handled properly. Not to mention myriad other aspects/issues/components of the Dubois situation. But, you like to skew issues into black and white arguments in support of your often weak positions. Every freaking post doesn't need to have a shot at other posters, either specifically or generally. Do you think you are perhaps being a little overly sensitive? #-o You complain about his statement that many had a poor assesment, and then make a statement like Pot meet kettle.

Exactly how is putting on of your top OBP guys leading off, being stupid? Also how do you figure a guy with a .348 OBP is overrated as a leadoff hitter. And -- you consider 46SB's a few more than Cedeno will have, how? Furcal is one of the top five NL leadoff hitter consistently over the last three years, and plays a difficult position with exceptional skill. I realize that Cedeno may be a good/decent starting SS someday, but to say that Furcal is worthless or overrated is just plain uninformed. Judging by the Cub's positional player moves i.e. Bobby Hill, Choi, Brendan Harris, etc., they do seem to have a handle on which players they believe will succeed and which ones they should salvage in a trade. Furcal has a 3/4 SB/CS ratio. That's slightly above break even. you can generate the same number of runs by having someone steal on easy counts 4-5 times a year. That's the value of his stolen bases...not much at all. That's why I call him overrated. As far as defense goes, he was Mr. Error in '02 and '03. you're assuming his defense this year (which was way above career norms for him) is going to continue. It's not. This year was an aberration. If you want to compare him to a known quantity on defense, look no further than our own Neifi Perez, who has a better ZR, FPCT, RF, and less errors per start at SS. You are overrating his defense. No, .348 OBP isn't bad, but isn't spectacular either. It's definitely nothing to throw 8-10 million at when we have the same player OBP-wise in Todd Walker (actually walker is a few points better) for 2.5 million. No, saying Furcal is overrated is not uninformed. I didn't say he sucked. I said people's opinions of him were wrong. The problem I have with your argument is that you have to stretch the statistics to make your point. For instance your argument on SB, You claim: . Over the last 3 years Furcal has attempted 118 SBs and got caught 18 Times!!! That is an 85% success ratio, which is alot different than what you claim. Nobody is arguing that Walker shouldn't be playing in this thread and last time I checked Walker played 2b and Furcal played SS, don't see a conflict there. What is wrong with having two guys that get on base at a .350 clip batting 1st and 2nd? With Lee and Ramirez following those 2, it would make for a pretty decent 1 - 4. I hope you aren't insinuating that Neifi is a bad defensive SS? Problem with relying solely on statistics is that you have no clue under what situations those errors were made. Where they made after he got to a ball that most SS wouldn't have gotten to? How many plays did he make that other SS wouldn't have made? Will he benefit with having DLee at 1b? Yes, I know what Furcal's SB% is. It's still only slightly above the break even point. I don't need to stretch stats to make that argument. If he was anywhere near 90%, I'd pay extra to get him, but he's not. He's regressed in that department anyways, going from 92.6%, 82.9%, to 82.1% the last three years and that will continue to regress as he gets older. BTW, his career SB% is 78%, so I didn't skew his numbers. There's nothing wrong having two guys batting 1 and 2 with around .350 OBP. It is a problem when you're paying one guy 2.5 million to do it and the other 10 million. The only difference between the two players is defense and stolen bases. 7.5 million isn't worth that, especially when we have a better defensive option (neifi for sure and cedeno is debateably better) in house. the stolen bases certainly aren't worth much. he runs himself into outs, which is the most expensive thing you can do when you're trying to score runs. lol, i don't know what kind of situations his errors came in? they usually came on throwing errors from what i've seen, or just flat out bobbling the ball (i watch the braves on TBS every chance i get). it doesn't have much to do with his "extra range." if he is making errors on the fringe of his range, then he shouldn't be throwing the ball, just holding onto it. throwing it into the seats isn't good (he basically negates whatever SB he gets by giving the other team an extra base on an errant throw). Yes, furcal will benefit from having DLee at 1B. Who wouldn't? Cedeno would benefit just as much as furcal would in that department, so i'm not sure what your argument is. Furcal isn't a bad player, but he is one of the favorites of scouts based on "tools" instead of looking at just how much his production helps the team. He is overvalued. I can't beleive I'm saying this, but I'd rather have Neifi at SS (batting 8th of course, lol) and Walker/Murton going 1/2. We can make up production in the OF with the large amount of $ saved by not getting Furcal. I don't think there is anyway that Furcal gets $10M and if he does I would not be suprised if the Cubs passed on him. But, $8-10M for a team with the Cubs payroll is not going to break the bank or by any means keep them from acquiring other players. If they are bringing back Walker to start, you have 4 positions that are already filled (3B, 2B, 1B, C). I agree with starting Murton in LF to save some money, but that would leave three positions to be filled by FA or trade and quite a bit of money left to do it. Why would you rather have Perez starting than a substantial upgrade (offensively) at SS? Isn't the point to put the best team on the field? Furcal immediately gives the Cubs a threat at leadoff and a guy who actually gets on base. AND if Neifi did come back there is no doubt in my mind that Baker would continue to send him out at #1 or 2 in the lineup. ](*,)

you can always count on Baker to play the worst lineup possible. amen to that.

Exactly how is putting on of your top OBP guys leading off, being stupid? Also how do you figure a guy with a .348 OBP is overrated as a leadoff hitter. And -- you consider 46SB's a few more than Cedeno will have, how? Furcal is one of the top five NL leadoff hitter consistently over the last three years, and plays a difficult position with exceptional skill. I realize that Cedeno may be a good/decent starting SS someday, but to say that Furcal is worthless or overrated is just plain uninformed. Judging by the Cub's positional player moves i.e. Bobby Hill, Choi, Brendan Harris, etc., they do seem to have a handle on which players they believe will succeed and which ones they should salvage in a trade. Furcal has a 3/4 SB/CS ratio. That's slightly above break even. you can generate the same number of runs by having someone steal on easy counts 4-5 times a year. That's the value of his stolen bases...not much at all. That's why I call him overrated. As far as defense goes, he was Mr. Error in '02 and '03. you're assuming his defense this year (which was way above career norms for him) is going to continue. It's not. This year was an aberration. If you want to compare him to a known quantity on defense, look no further than our own Neifi Perez, who has a better ZR, FPCT, RF, and less errors per start at SS. You are overrating his defense. No, .348 OBP isn't bad, but isn't spectacular either. It's definitely nothing to throw 8-10 million at when we have the same player OBP-wise in Todd Walker (actually walker is a few points better) for 2.5 million. No, saying Furcal is overrated is not uninformed. I didn't say he sucked. I said people's opinions of him were wrong. The problem I have with your argument is that you have to stretch the statistics to make your point. For instance your argument on SB, You claim: . Over the last 3 years Furcal has attempted 118 SBs and got caught 18 Times!!! That is an 85% success ratio, which is alot different than what you claim. Nobody is arguing that Walker shouldn't be playing in this thread and last time I checked Walker played 2b and Furcal played SS, don't see a conflict there. What is wrong with having two guys that get on base at a .350 clip batting 1st and 2nd? With Lee and Ramirez following those 2, it would make for a pretty decent 1 - 4. I hope you aren't insinuating that Neifi is a bad defensive SS? Problem with relying solely on statistics is that you have no clue under what situations those errors were made. Where they made after he got to a ball that most SS wouldn't have gotten to? How many plays did he make that other SS wouldn't have made? Will he benefit with having DLee at 1b?

Exactly how is putting on of your top OBP guys leading off, being stupid? Also how do you figure a guy with a .348 OBP is overrated as a leadoff hitter. And -- you consider 46SB's a few more than Cedeno will have, how? Furcal is one of the top five NL leadoff hitter consistently over the last three years, and plays a difficult position with exceptional skill. I realize that Cedeno may be a good/decent starting SS someday, but to say that Furcal is worthless or overrated is just plain uninformed. Judging by the Cub's positional player moves i.e. Bobby Hill, Choi, Brendan Harris, etc., they do seem to have a handle on which players they believe will succeed and which ones they should salvage in a trade.

Does anyone doubt that Rusch would have gotten more in Free Agency? Just wondering, it seems like he could have gotten more to start for another team.

I can't stand Macias and don't care much for Perez, but something tells me that no matter who it is that replaces them, same time next year we will be complaining about them and hoping that Hendry doesn't resign them.

We can only judge the man on the moves he has made to this point. You are right though he still has most of the off season to make decent moves. Although, his early moves show no indication that this year will be any better than last year.

Never Mind. It looks like its official from Bruce Miles himself. http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sportsstory.asp?id=112172 Wonder what Hendry has up his sleeve? On Walker: O boy. On Burnitz, Jeez why do I have any faith that Hendry will improve the team. Next weekend Hendry will annouce he signed Neifi and Macias. ](*,)

Is Levine saying that the Cubs offered him the deal or he accepted the deal?? There is a big difference between the two. IMO if Rusch takes the 2/$6M, money is not his main motivation for staying. Even though many regard him here as horrible, he could probably make more in Free Agency. That said, I wouldn't mind Rusch checking out the free agent market.

Is it an official signing now? Title said that Hendry was going to offer him 2/$6M. I think Rusch would really have to want to stay with the Cubs to take an avg. of $3M a year for that short term of a deal. I'm not saying the guy is a great pitcher, but he does have value as a number 4 or 5 starter and would be an upgrade for a few pitching staffs in the league. Does anyone know if Rusch was hurt after the all star break? His numbers pre-all star break were not bad.

Not terribly relevant. IIRC, James' theory on closer by committee was misapplied in Boston. The theory is dependent on having specific types of arms, which Boston did not have. Right, and it just so happens that the other teams that tried it also didn't have the specific arms, like oh say a Closer?