Peoriaman
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Everything posted by Peoriaman
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I don't think you're understanding what a double cut is. Tell me, what is a double cut? A double cut is when both middle infielders go out and one of them receives the throw. For the play in question, DeRosa and Theriot both got into position to receive a throw from Murton, with some space between them. There's been a good deal of debate on the exact purpose in the thread, but the point is that one of them receives the throw from Murton. A double cut means Murton to DeRosa or Theriot to the plate, not Murton to DeRosa to Theriot to the plate. Well said. I have yet to see a MLB team not using a double cut. It is to protect against a cut-off man getting missed.
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So you're basing your throwing decision on the worst case scenario, that being a terrible throw that the 2nd cut can't even knock down. Makes sense to do that for little league and even some high schoolers(though by the time I learned double cut we were using it in the way I presented), but for a major leaguer that's wasteful to throw to the short guy just because you might make a bad throw and now you can save a runner from moving up one base max. Just the opposite--if you miss the first guy, there is a back-up. If you miss the second guy, problems. I don't know how old you are or if you've ever played ball at an advanced level. However, reading your posts makes me think you haven't. Once you get past little league there is no 2nd cut off. If you need two cuts to get a guy out at home you aren't getting him out unless he's tryng for an inside the park HR or very, very slow. It is asinine. I could be wrong but it looked to me like Murton picked Theriot up at the edge of the infield like an outfielder is taught to do when throwing to home, and fired. Theriot might have been backing up Derosa who was way out of positon, I don't know. Had Murton thrown to him instead of Theriot a run would have scored. Good play by Murton and Theriot. major league teams use the double cut all the time.
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So you're basing your throwing decision on the worst case scenario, that being a terrible throw that the 2nd cut can't even knock down. Makes sense to do that for little league and even some high schoolers(though by the time I learned double cut we were using it in the way I presented), but for a major leaguer that's wasteful to throw to the short guy just because you might make a bad throw and now you can save a runner from moving up one base max. Just the opposite--if you miss the first guy, there is a back-up. If you miss the second guy, problems.
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I said what you said was silly, not that you were silly--sorry, it just is. I have had enough, we clearly disagree. If you hit the 2nd cut-off guy, no harm no foul. You miss him, and you have a problem. That is why the first guy is there--the primary guy. The second guy is the back-up.
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I have--when the ball goes over the second cut-off guy or when it skips by him with nobody to back him up........
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because if the throw gets by from the second guy, there is no failsafe--the run scores--thus, the double cut to protect against that. Also, as previously mentioned, the sooner a cut-off guy has it in his glove, the less likely the 3rd base coach will send the runner home.
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The great part of your posts is that you don't frame the question in a biased manner. Those of us who disagree with Sut and you think Murton threw to the correct cut-off man (the 2nd one). We're not arguing that he should "overthrow the cut-off man." There were 2 cut-off men and Murton made a good throw to the 2nd one. so the first guy is superfluous? He serves no purpose? I have played and coached baseball for 45 years and this is the first time I ever heard that the outfielder is supposed to intentionally overthrow the first cut-off man. In fact, I am stunned anybody is even proposing this. Listen, I like Murton. He overthrew a cut-off guy and the double cut served its purpose. Again, Matt CAN make mistakes. You guys sound silly trying to make it sound like he didn't.
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There was a Philly double to right with a runnner on first. Murton played the ball off the wall and overthrew the cut-off guy. The Cubs used a double cut and the second guy caught it and held the runner at third, as the first guy would have. Sut said Murton overthrew the cut-off guy--which he did. Some here think Murton should overthrow the cut-off guy, that the cut-off guy is superfluous. I agree with Sut. All that said, it wasn't a huge deal.
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It is not the not the end of the world. He just overthrew the cut-off guy and the back up guy took over. Believe it or not, they don't give the outfielder the choice of what cut-off man to hit. :)
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LOL, wasn't that drunk color guy Sutcliffe? Yes. And for the record, it was DeRosa, not Fontenot. Not that it matters who it was, but I'm busting chops today. Whoever it was, was out of position. Sutcliffe probably saw the field better, but it looked to me like Murton turned caught sight of whoever was at the end of the infield, whirled and threw. Luckily Theriot was there already. Like I wrote, if he would have hit the cut off, that's a run. I turned on the XM and listened to Corey Provis and Ron on a 15 second delay after about the fourth inning of listening to Suttcliffe name drop and basically provide every cliche known to baseball. He sucks. Since we're bagging on outfielders, how about Pagan with the brain fart? At least he didn't toss it into the bleacerhes. Derosa wasn't out of position. Middle infielders are taught to go out that far to receive a cut off throw. One of the reasons is because the 3rd base coach will probably hold a runner if it's already in the hand of the cut off man. exactly I disagree - but regardless, Murton hit the correct cut-off. Laugh. That is silly.
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Trust me guys, outfielders are supposed to hit the 1st cut-off man. The second guy is a back-up. Otherwise, why would you send a guy out there is he wasn't supposed to be thrown to?
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LOL, wasn't that drunk color guy Sutcliffe? Yes. And for the record, it was DeRosa, not Fontenot. Not that it matters who it was, but I'm busting chops today. Whoever it was, was out of position. Sutcliffe probably saw the field better, but it looked to me like Murton turned caught sight of whoever was at the end of the infield, whirled and threw. Luckily Theriot was there already. Like I wrote, if he would have hit the cut off, that's a run. I turned on the XM and listened to Corey Provis and Ron on a 15 second delay after about the fourth inning of listening to Suttcliffe name drop and basically provide every cliche known to baseball. He sucks. Since we're bagging on outfielders, how about Pagan with the brain fart? At least he didn't toss it into the bleacerhes. Derosa wasn't out of position. Middle infielders are taught to go out that far to receive a cut off throw. One of the reasons is because the 3rd base coach will probably hold a runner if it's already in the hand of the cut off man. exactly
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We can argue philosophical differences in how an outfielder is supposed to approach a throw like that, but either way it's a remarkably petty thing to criticize Murton for. As I said--it wasn't a big deal. That said, it is remarkably silly to paint the throw as a good one and as an intentional overthrow. Like it or not, managers pay attention to details and fundamental mistakes. Murton is trying to prove he belongs out there, and his defense is holding him back some. What you or I may consider petty may not be petty in major league coach's minds.
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Listen, I like Murton. I hope he succeeds. But lets not try to paint everything he does as good. He had a tough game at the plate last night--as did all Cub hitters. He made a poor cut-off throw--that didn't hurt us---that isn't the end of the world. Those who paint everything Matt does as good really hurt their credibility. The same approach was taken by many on Choi and look where he ended up. Let's be realistic--even optimistic-- and hope Matt does well. Let's not go overboard on trying to make him look good.
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Outfielders are not taught to miss the first cut-off guy. The double cut is there to protect agaisnt bad throws from the outfield or the first cut-off guy missing the throw. The double cut worked, but it is a stretch beyond imagination to pretend that the outfielder is supposed to overthrow the first cut-off guy.
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He did badly miss the cut-off guy, but the double cut saved him.
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Unfortunately, he didn't help himself tonight at the plate or in the field. Go get 'em tomorrow.
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Rot on the bench? Man, hyperbole galore here. We are trying to win a division and Murton got called up 3 or 4 days ago. You already have him rotting?
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So if he gets a hit in his PH appearance, he's "earned" a chance to start the next game. If he goes 2/3 with a double and an RBI - maybe he gets another start or two. If he goes 0/4 with 2 Ks - he sucks and it's back to the farm. Doesn't seem like a logical way to run a team. Not that I think that's really what Lou's doing, but that seems to be what you're suggesting. Murton struggled early, his past performance was ignored and he was banished to AAA. He performed very well there, so he was recalled and put in a PH role, even though the starter isn't performing. Lou's excuses for not starting him this weekend are crap. Seems to me he's either the subject of a lot of trade discussion or Lou doesn't like him much. Patience. He will get opportunities and if Floyd is really as fragile as you say, he will get opportunities quickly. Success isn't a straight line for many--if he can really do it, he will get his chance, and soon. In fact, I think he will probably get at least one start this week. This is the plight of all subs--they need to perform as a sub to get a chance to play more. If he does, he will.
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Johan Santana - 2004 thanks.
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has a cy young winner ever been passed over for the all-star game?
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all threads lead to Murton.
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as I said--if Murton is good, he will show it and get more time. Piniella has been very open to giving players that produce more time. Lou gave him a chance earlier in the season and he will get his chance down the stretch if he produces.
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well said jjig. The stats guys are as unbending and stubborn now as they claimed the old-timers were a few years ago.
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Is Derrek Lee's power gone forever?
Peoriaman replied to Mephistopheles's topic in Chicago Cubs Talk
apparently not.