professahesse

Not to cast aspersions or rain on anyone's parade, but is there any possibility that Huff's down year (and even his alleged attitude problems) could be the result of coming off the juice? Just a thought.

No kidding, who does he think we are, the Cardinals? Anyway, if Hendry did go with Patterson in right, what would become of all the money left to spend? Manny or Abreu at the deadline. And the stats I listed for the guys are not outrageously inflated or beyond reasonable attainment.

Well yeah, but Projected and Actual are two different things. We had what 57 total HRs from our outfield (Lawton may have had one or so I don't know) so if we get 55 this year but CPAT hits .270 and steals 30+, Pierre hits .300 and steals 60, Cedeno hits. 275 and steals 25+ I say we score alot more runs and win alot more games, especially if the Staff stays healthy and the bullpen improves like it very well could.

] What makes you think he can even hit .250? Did you even watch him play last year? How about he hit better than that in 2003 AND 2004? Of course I saw him last year. I think that if they just worked on him (real hard by the way) to discipline himself about the strike zone, let him swing away like he did in 03 and 04 and continue to learn to bunt he'd find himself. He doesn't have to lead off now, we can place him down the order so the pressure is off, eliminate the distractions, just let the kid mature and he'll get there IMO. The guy had way too many "swing thoughts" last year. Let Patterson be Patterson. It might not happen too. Thats a possiblity. But I think all of the godawful lament that there's no chance that he'll do anything is more overly effected frustration parading as baseball knowledge than is warranted.

He also loves donuts. Well THAT makes him not only astute, but normal.

I'll affirm that thinking. Hendry is alot more astute and aware of the personalities and abilities of the ball players on the Cubs than any of his critics on this board IMO. Everyone is entitled to their opinions of course, but I'll listen a little longer to the guys in the "industry".

Corey can take the all the instruction in the world, it still wont change the fact that he's just not a natural baseball player. He's the classic toolsy athletic player who doesn't have any natural feel for the game. There have been thousands of these guys that have gone through the MLB through the years, and there will be thousands more. The only difference is that instead of calling them the next Odibe McDowell, we'll call them the next Corey Patterson. And this wasn't just one bad year, he's had these problems since day 1. He's always been a highly rated prospect more due to his tools than his production, dating all the way back to the minors. They are the epitome of what the Sabermetrics disciples are supposed disciplined and objective enough to discern, yet somehow when its your prospect on your team people even the most skeptical get star-struck by what could be. Let's face it, I don't care how atheltically gifted he is, if Hendry were to trade even the most throwaway pieces for a player on another team with Corey's numbers and salary and gave him a spot on the roster (much less dibs on the corner outfield spot) we would all be flipping out. The server would blow into tiny smithereens. Its because he came through the Cubs minor leagues and we've been tracking him for the last 5 years and reading all of his articles and dreaming about what could be that we have invested too much in him emotionally to face reality. With this many AB's in this bad of numbers ... if Corey were to turn his career around it would be the anamoly of all anamolies. You don't KNOW that Patterson won't produce next year. I'm not saying he is Lou Brock. All I'm saying is he DOES HAVE potential. And if he hits .270+ (or even .250 for that matter), hits 20+ HRs and has 60-75 RBIs and 25+SBs he'll likely equal or out produce all the RFs left out there except Abreu or Manny. YOU are the one who is looking through your own pre-conceived notions about Patterson, NOT ME.

Yeah, the Marlins are having a fire sale not an estate auction

He's 27-28 yrs. old, got speed, plays decent defense, his 2003 and 04 stats show promise, he's fairly cheap for his potential, I think the team will be carried by the pitching staff and odds are that we'll have a healthier staff this year, fits the Pierre new paradigm of speed......anything else you'd like me to add except that he had a bad year last year?

If he bunts, walks (Tim I believe thought [and correctly over the long term] that CPAT's walks would increase) gets that kind of production I'll play him in the 8 hole 145+ games next year.

I think whether or not CPAT has a decent to good year depends more on whether HE WANTS to come back to the Cubs more than that he potentially CAN AND WILL produce.

By no means am I a big Corey fan like a lot of people on this board are, but... why would KPat in RF be a "horrible" idea? Assuming we land Tejada (I know, big assumption) I'd be completely fine with Corey batting 8th for the Cubs next year. At his best Corey would be an average right fielder offensively. His defensive strength is his range, not his arm, which means that he would be wasted/ineffective defensively in RF. Most of all though, Corey in RF is an absolute failure to get production from a corner OF spot. If you go into next season with Cedeno, Murton, AND Patterson in your lineup, you're just asking for trouble, and it doesn't really matter all that much if you get Tejada, you've still got about half your lineup that has a very real chance of falling completely on its face. I think the question at hand is are the other options that much better than Corey? Will they get us into the playoffs? I think the answer is no, it would not be a big enough upgrade. So why not give Corey the chance to prove himself? It's entirely too early to give up on the trade market. The FA RF's might be slim, but there's still a good deal of offseason left to make a move for an outfielder. Shoot if we can get Abreu, Manny or even Floyd I'd sure take them, don't get me wrong, but I'd say those options are REAL thin. Thinner than CPAT hitting .270-.275 and hitting 15-20 HRs etc. Too me, even if we get say a Floyd....keep CPAT too if we can. He's a toolsy guy. And a potential real good ball player.

By no means am I a big Corey fan like a lot of people on this board are, but... why would KPat in RF be a "horrible" idea? Assuming we land Tejada (I know, big assumption) I'd be completely fine with Corey batting 8th for the Cubs next year. At his best Corey would be an average right fielder offensively. His defensive strength is his range, not his arm, which means that he would be wasted/ineffective defensively in RF. Most of all though, Corey in RF is an absolute failure to get production from a corner OF spot. If you go into next season with Cedeno, Murton, AND Patterson in your lineup, you're just asking for trouble, and it doesn't really matter all that much if you get Tejada, you've still got about half your lineup that has a very real chance of falling completely on its face. Cedeno can hit .275, Murton could hit .275, CPAT could hit.....270. Thats not falling on your face is it?

] Maybe yes, maybe no. Corey is a REAL toolsy guy. Fast. Good D. Has hit the ball before. I KNOW he can learn and adapt. Left handed to boot. He learns the Strike zone, keeps learning to bunt and walk, has to do better than last year, hides in the 8th hole. One Brock in a half century is enough. Play him. The pitching will carry us next year, and he'll probably hit alright anyway.

The kid has a lot of POTENTIAL upside. Use the money to find and secure our starting pitching (which has got to be healthier than last year with the least of luck) instead. Remember CPAT has speed too. Our strategy is to use speed next year right? If Murton and Cedeno hit .275+ and so does CPAT. We aren't hurt offensively and we got more speed too.

Right. Lets see how CPAT hits in the second half of Winter Ball (Didn't I hear he was going to do that?) Hell, even let him go back to his wide sweeping swing maybe if he can still cut down on some of his K's, which I think came last year more from just being out of synch with his long time habits more than from an inability to hit the ball. He hit pretty well with that swing in 2003 and also 2004. Drill the strike zone into that kid, let him swing away and watch him become comeback of the year winner. RF solved.

I say keep CPAT. CPAT is just as likely to hit .275+ next year as Cedeno, or even Murton for that matter, and we're most of us willing to let both of them start and get 500+ ABs next year. I get this feeling CPAT is going to rebound fairly well this year. Bat him 7th or 8th. With a team of Pierre, CPAT, Cedeno, Murton? and Lee we've got quite a bit of speed. And I think both Cedeno and Murton WILL hit .275+ next year too so they won't hurt us. Pierre Walker Lee Ramirez Murton Barret Cedeno CPAT Cedono, CPAT, pitcher and Pierre. Thats a pretty fast run scoring 4 ABs. Think about it.

I say keep CPAT. CPAT is just as likely to hit .275+ next year as Cedeno, or even Murton for that matter, and we're most of us willing to let both of them start and get 500+ ABs next year. I get this feeling CPAT is going to rebound fairly well this year. Bat him 7th or 8th. With a team of Pierre, CPAT, Cedeno, Murton? and Lee we've got quite a bit of speed. And I think both Cedeno and Murton WILL hit .275+ next year too so they won't hurt us. Pierre Walker Lee Ramirez Murton Barret Cedeno CPAT Cedono, CPAT, pitcher and Pierre. Thats a pretty fast run scoring 4 ABs. Think about it.

Play CPAT in RF. I still think he can hit .275+ with 20+ HRs and good RBI production. I know I'm whipping this idea pretty hard here, but think about what a rebounded CPAT could do for this team. Its not impossible, and I would assert imminently possible.

The reason I have grave doubts about that is the same reason keeping Neifi! around disturbs me: Dusty. Dusty and Corey may not see eye-to-eye, but Dusty has convinced himself that Corey should be able to hit at the top of the order (because he's fast. or whatever). And once Dusty has convinced himself of something, he sticks with it, consequences and results be damned. If by chance Cedeno and Corey are both still on the team in '06, I'd hope that Cedeno would get the free pass to be hidden someplace in the lineup if he struggles. Murton might actually go through a cold spell himself -- I hope not, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility. Additionally ... Corey's defense post-amazing-catch-in-Cincy suffered somewhat last year, and I don't recall him being very successful on the basepaths despite his speed. If the Cubs trade away Cedeno, I'd be more comfortable with Corey sticking around. I can't see having Cedeno / Murton / Corey in the same lineup, and if I have to choose two out of the three, Corey doesn't make the cut. Yeah, all of that makes sense, but I still think CPAT has a lot of upside and I haven't COMPLETELY lost faith in him. If he does come around he'd be a real asset. If the Cubs didn't plan to contend, they could afford to give him a shot. Getting Pierre ended Corey's Cubs career in my opinion. He wouldn't produce enough to play RF even if he reaches his peak. Well play him in short right then. :D

At this point Patterson. Honestly, I haven't completely lost faith in him, and if he hit .275+, had 20+ HRs, good RBI production and had 25+ SBs he'd be our best option and give us better D in RF. I'd take Floyd as the best of your above options (if he was available) but still think CPAT should be our first option.

The reason I have grave doubts about that is the same reason keeping Neifi! around disturbs me: Dusty. Dusty and Corey may not see eye-to-eye, but Dusty has convinced himself that Corey should be able to hit at the top of the order (because he's fast. or whatever). And once Dusty has convinced himself of something, he sticks with it, consequences and results be damned. If by chance Cedeno and Corey are both still on the team in '06, I'd hope that Cedeno would get the free pass to be hidden someplace in the lineup if he struggles. Murton might actually go through a cold spell himself -- I hope not, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility. Additionally ... Corey's defense post-amazing-catch-in-Cincy suffered somewhat last year, and I don't recall him being very successful on the basepaths despite his speed. If the Cubs trade away Cedeno, I'd be more comfortable with Corey sticking around. I can't see having Cedeno / Murton / Corey in the same lineup, and if I have to choose two out of the three, Corey doesn't make the cut. Yeah, all of that makes sense, but I still think CPAT has a lot of upside and I haven't COMPLETELY lost faith in him. If he does come around he'd be a real asset.

You could be right of course, but with his upside potential and again being as good as we can probably come up with before opening day I think he's still our best option. And for the additional reason that we should have better luck keeping our Staff healthy which ought to translate into winning all by itself which may well translate into a better crowd reaction and hopefully more relaxation and production from him (Patterson). All this is hypothetical, but its not impossible to be sure either.

I think he can do that, just not with the Cubs. He needs to get his head straight at a small market club. Yeah, I know that is the consensus view, but if you stick him in the 7 or 8 hole and just let him play I still think he's as good as any RF candidate realistically available to us (except perhaps Floyd...if he's actually available). Plus he's young, fast, got good D and relatively cheap.

I still think Patterson can hit .275+ with 20+ HR's, 25+ SB's and good RBI production. I say bat him 7th or 8th (after making him stand and just call balls or strikes from live pitching for at least a few hours everyday until opening day). Patterson can cover right and right center, Pierre covers center and part of left center, Murton covers left and part of left center.