UMFan83

I think that's exactly what this is, and I too would be disapointed if Theo was the out of public eye president and Hoyer was the GM. Then again, apparently the best part of Theo is his ability to build a strong baseball organization and farm system and his worst quality is his ability to make successful FA signings. Hiring Hoyer as GM to target and negotiate FAs might be beneficial even if Theo surely has tons of influence on the decisions. Even if that's true, there has to be some level of independence built into the position for Hoyer to leave his position controlling the SD franchise and move to Chicago to work under Theo. Would make no sense to pay Theo 15-20M to not make those decisions. He is making those most important decisions. He's just giving Hoyer leiway to make decisions under the scope of what Theo's plan is. I dunno, its the only quasi-logical reason I can think that Hoyer wants to give up his control of a major league baseball team to take a less important role under Theo. He could be making more money, but I can't see it being significant enough for him to leave his current position. You really can't see any reason why Hoyer would want to leave the Padres to join the Cubs and his old buddy? Option A: Have full control over a major league franchise in San Diego Option B: Do all the dirty work for Theo as he makes decisions and I execute them It's a clear step back in his career. Maybe his motivations are different than most people, but most people in the baseball world would kill for the opportunity to run their own baseball opps department for an MLB team.

I think that's exactly what this is, and I too would be disapointed if Theo was the out of public eye president and Hoyer was the GM. Then again, apparently the best part of Theo is his ability to build a strong baseball organization and farm system and his worst quality is his ability to make successful FA signings. Hiring Hoyer as GM to target and negotiate FAs might be beneficial even if Theo surely has tons of influence on the decisions. Even if that's true, there has to be some level of independence built into the position for Hoyer to leave his position controlling the SD franchise and move to Chicago to work under Theo. Would make no sense to pay Theo 15-20M to not make those decisions. He is making those most important decisions. He's just giving Hoyer leiway to make decisions under the scope of what Theo's plan is. I dunno, its the only quasi-logical reason I can think that Hoyer wants to give up his control of a major league baseball team to take a less important role under Theo. He could be making more money, but I can't see it being significant enough for him to leave his current position.

I think that's exactly what this is, and I too would be disapointed if Theo was the out of public eye president and Hoyer was the GM. Then again, apparently the best part of Theo is his ability to build a strong baseball organization and farm system and his worst quality is his ability to make successful FA signings. Hiring Hoyer as GM to target and negotiate FAs might be beneficial even if Theo surely has tons of influence on the decisions. Even if that's true, there has to be some level of independence built into the position for Hoyer to leave his position controlling the SD franchise and move to Chicago to work under Theo.

Not to be confused with ZpX$://si.com

CC still thinks its 25% chance of Theo coming here.

The Raiders gave up a crapload for Carson Palmer.

So wait..if the draft was today, they would only have a 5th and 6th round pick to use in it? Or are there other picks that they've acquired from trades? That's hilarous if true.

That is an absurdly ridiculous statement. This year, sure. But this is the NFL, there is absolutely no reason why they couldn't be right back in it next season. Forte may not be worth a damn in two years. Do you honestly think if Jerry Angelo is still the GM he's going to all the sudden be aggressive at drafting/signing offensive weapons? He's had 3 years to build around Jay Cutler and he's given us....Roy Williams and Marion Barber.

Except for the fact that he ran for the most yards, scored the most rushing TDs, caught the most passes and scored the most passing TDs of his career in Ron Turner's jank ass offense his rookie season. He has had a higher YPCarry and YPCatch in the Martz offense though.

I wouldn't I would. Unless he's a hall of famer in the making Forte might not have a lot of miles left on those legs. For cap purposes, a franchise tag this offseason and then letting him go might be the right decision, if not a trade before then. OK, well give me an example of an NFL player that you would expect to get back for Forte. I understand the short shelf life of an NFL RB, but you are talking about a premiere one that puts up numbers comparable to Peterson (according to FO). He's litterally the only offensive weapon we have besides the QB, and we have a GM that refuses to acquire weapons for the offense. Not only are you punting this year, but you are probably punting the next one or two years after that by making the move. That said, its not completely unreasonable and what sulley suggested is a fair price for him if you wanted to trade him. I just think he's too valuable to us for the next 2 years at least to trade away. But yeah 2 years from now no matter how good or bad he is, its something I definitely consider.

The second part of that did not come out of Henry's mouth. That is somebody's interpretation of it. He did say that that protocol exists, and it WOULD seem to imply that that means if you offer someone a promotion, they will grant that person permission to interview. Still, granting permission doesn't at all imply anything about an agreement on compensation or that they'll agree to allowing the person out of his/her contract easily. In fact, he didn't even really come out and acknowledge that what the Cubs are offering is a non-lateral move (which is, to some extent, a subjective matter of opinion), though it's likely that they, at least somewhat, agree that it is. Bravo, David! Several people need to read the bolded as many times as necessary before it sinks in. Page after page of discussion about is it or isn't it a lateral move is completely irrelevant to the current issue of compensation. I think most of us realize that the quote doesn't refer to him leaving the Red Sox for nothing and at the same time most of us agree that there should be compensation involved in the process. What people do take from the quote is that there is an obvious difference between a manager leaving one team to take a manager position on another team and a GM on one team leaving to another to become President of Baseball Operations. Think back to the logic of why they don't refuse interviews to teams offering their guys promotions. Because they don't beleive its fair to their employees to block them from advancing their career with a promotion. As such, it stands to reason that they wouldnt also block their guys from accepting those positions by asking for unreasonable compensation, or at least compensation comperable to what the White Sox got or the Mariners or whoever has traded a manager to another team.

I wouldn't

Don't forget they also gave up a...5th? rounder to take Pryor in the supplemental draft.

There are 497 buildings in the city of Chicago that are 19 floors or higher. OK I did the first part, Kyle you find out which ones contain hotels.

They gave up way too much especially because the Bengals really didn't have any leverage unless the Raiders really believed that the Bengals were willing to let his contract run out and get nothing for him. That said, Carson Palmer is not a bad pickup purely as an addition. Yes he sucked last year when he was supposed to be leading the Bengals to victories. But in Oakland all he needs to do is make throws when needed and hand it off the rest of the time. He's certainly a better option than Boller. Since they got off to a good start this year and Al Davis died, they obviously want to make the playoffs this year, and Carson Palmer, for all his warts, is certainly a better choice to get them there than Boller or whoever else. that said, Carson Palmer of 2011 has like 25% of the value that Jay Cutler did 3 years ago and the returns for both are somewhat similar. Raiders will regret this trade sooner than later.

I doubt Nick Cafardo is too worried about stalkers or even people that would care enough to prank call him...even if there were slim chance said stalker would figure out what hotel it was. Someone wanna guess how many hotels are 19 stories or higher in chicago? I'm gonna guess that it's enough to make even the stalkiest stalker too lazy to figure out.

John Henry: Theo agreed to a deal with the Cubs, so we asked for Garza back yadda yadda yadda, Wellington Castillo is our new starting catcher.

Yeah, I definitely like Brandon Marshall but he's not in the same league as Megatron. CJ is a physical specimen, the likes or which only come around once every other decade. He is just built to be a fantastic WR.

People still subscribe to Sporting News?

If the Red Sox get anything more than a mediocre A-ball pitcher, they should be happy. Hmm...I think you forgot to account for inflation.

You start high and you work your way down, by asking for a Low A ball player with no ceiling in return, you're making the Cubs fan base do handstands, and probably leaving something on the table. I have to negotiate contracts every day...it can be annoying as hell but people understand parameters before speaking and then you work your way to a middle ground in which both parties can agree to. There's a difference between starting negotiations by asking for something unreasonable and asking for something on the highest end of reasonable. Asking for a proven major league #2 starter on a cheap contract is unreasonable and is a rather odd way to set the tone for your negotiations.

Couple of things. The last one of you SoSH's who came by earlier in the thread said the same stuff about using Guillen as a basis for compensation, and this is faulty logic for a couple of reasons (and I hope you address them as the other guy continually ignored them): 1) Theo is being offered a promotion. This isn't manager in Chicago becomes manager in Miami, it is VP of baseball ops/GM becoming President of baseball operations and reporting to only the owner. It's a promotion and a raise, and if you want to talk about precedent, there is plenty of precedent out there of front office guys moving to other organizations for a promotion and compensation is never discussed. 2) The are multiple sources that say that the return that the Sox got for Ozzie was due to alleged tampering by the Marlins for over a year. If you recall there were rumors about this move last season as well. Also, there were rumors of Ozzie signing a 4 year contract with Miami at the same exact time Guillen was in Reinsdorf's office "asking for an extension" aka getting out of his contract so he could go to Florida. There was no permission granted and no known interview for the position. This was worked out behind the scenes, and because of this the Marlins felt obligated to compensate the Sox. I personally don't think that Theo can come back to the Red Sox and co-exist at this point. I am not sure that the relationship is as frayed as its suggested, but the facts are that Epstein has chosen to join the Cubs over the Red Sox. He would rather work some place else. Also, Theo has 1 year left on his contract and reports are out there that Theo already told the Red Sox before the Cubs situation came up that he would be leaving Boston after his contract is up. Maybe it was a negotiating ploy by Theo, who knows. But all the signs point to a reunion between the Red Sox and Theo being short lived at best. Do the Red Sox really want to pay $7 million for a GM that won't be there after this year. Wouldn't the Red Sox rather move on and let the new GM take over with his plan and vision instead of waiting to do it a year from now? That brings me to another point, that there are reports that the Red Sox have already informed Cherington that he will be the new GM. If Theo comes back for this year, Cherington will become a popular candidate to interview for other GM positions, namely Baltimore or Anaheim. Given that he would be interviewing for a promotion, I doubt the Red Sox will stand in his way. I think they'd owe it to him after giving him the GM role twice only to take it back from him. So you risk losing Theo AND Cherington within a year. It's a possibility that with Theo saying he won't be back that Cherington will sit patiently and wait for another season, but its also possible that he wants to make his next career move sooner rather than later, and if that's the case he's gone this offseason most likely. So, on one side you gain $7 million, keep Cherington and get a mid level prospect from the Cubs. On the other you lose $7 million, possibly lose Cherington and get no compensation for Theo. Is that worth taking a hard stance based on principle? I don't mind if the only thing we give up is McNutt and cash, that is fine. But I trust Ricketts' judgement in the matter, and the fact is, we have no idea what the Red Sox are really asking. If Kraplan is right about the Red Sox offer still being insane, its much more than McNutt and cash. First to get something out of the way, the Sox would still have to allow Cherrington to interview with another team, as anyone under contract has to get permission for. The chances of them doing this would be remote as I had mentioned before hes going to be the Sox GM, regardless. The Guillen comparison is actually I think spot on, because of two issues. 1)This is a "promotion" but its not...Theo will still be doing the same job duties as he has since 2006. This was taken care of when Lucchino was moved over to more of the business side of the house, and Theo was given virtual control over the Baseball side of the house. 2)Teams control their employees regardless of if it will be a promotion or not. I used an example in my post about Dan Jennings and Al Aliva as examples, they can absolutely block someone from taking a job elsewhere. Now the Red Sox usually do not do this, however since Epstein is running the department (Baseball Ops) they view this move as a lateral one, this is why they asked for compensation. If they laid this out for the Cubbies on the front end then this is absolutely valid, once again none of us really know what either team is asking for. In fact here's the time line -Heyman reports Sox prefer cash -Kaplan comes out and says the Sox want prospects ...now after a bunch of back and forth we're at this point. I wouldn't rule out Larry attempting to get every last dime out of the Cubbies, and if you are responsible for the overall business aspects of running a team, why wouldn't you? If you were the Sox and didn't at least ask for Garza then what is that saying to your fan base? You never know until you ask, as with everything in life. As I mentioned before the Sox would usually not stand in the way of a promotion, however like with Chris Antonelli in Cleveland he turned down loads of interviews since he knew that Shapiro would be moving up and he would be next in line. Cherrington knows that hes next in line, and if Epstein stays...hell they make him the Co-CEO and he doesn't have to deal with the day to day GM duties...hes Mark Shapiro in this scenario pretty much. -I'm not sure about the Marlins "tampering" with Ozzie, however the fact that they were talking names like Mike Stanton last year tells me that this is probably BS, again I could be wrong but usually when tampering is involved, Selig gets involved (chuckle) or the offending team gives up compensation, however since this has been going on for 2 years now I would believe that its a trade...pure and simple. -If you throw out Ozzie you still have...Chuck Tanner for an all star, Lou Piniella for a starting CF, and Billy Beane for a 3-5 prospect in the Sox system (Youkilis or someone else depending on who you actually believe)...so I would say the Ozzie comparison would actually strengthen the argument for the Cubs faithful as opposed to the other 3. Someone who runs baseball operations and will bring a staff such as Byrnes and others with him (they'll let him bring 1 or 2 people, probably Baird too) is much more valuable than what a manager can bring to the table, as that person is responsible for the health of the entire system, the manager effects the major league product. The GM is the one who can put people into spots in the minors and develop the entire system from the ground up. Much more valuable, and the impact shows on the field. Hope I answered your questions... First of don't ever call them the Cubbies. Most Cubs fans hate that. The Sox and Marlins were talking about Stanton last year when Ozzie still had 2 years left on his deal and the Sox had no reason to let him go. The alleged tampering was obviously not something that was public knowledge at the time, and the compensation was offered to ignore any instances of tampering and so that the Sox did not look further into it. The fact that there were reports of Ozzie getting a 4 year deal from the marlins circulating at the exact same time Ozzie was meeting to discuss his status tells me that there was tampering. In all of those other examples you mention (including Ozzie), you are talking about managers leaving to become managers. Regardless of what Theo's roles are compared to Boston, this is a promotion that comes with a better title, less people to report to and challenge his decisions, and oh yeah a hefty pay raise. There is no precedent for this situation, so the Sox and Cubs are essentially setting the market for this, despite the fact that the Cubs have already "given" the Red Sox 3.5 million to pay for the contract temination or whatever it is that the Red Sox would have to pay next year. It can be argued that the Cubs shouldn't have to give Boston any other compensation, but the Cubs none the less have agreed to compensate the Red Sox further. I understand that the Red Sox can say no to teams asking about Cherington, but you are not really addressing my points. First of all, Henry went on the radio 10 days ago and said it is their position that they do not stand in the way of teams interviewing their employees when a promotion is on the table. It stands to reason that Cherington would not be exempt from that as well regardless of the state the Sox are in, assuming they are not giving him the GM position because Theo comes back. You mention examples of other teams but the only thing we "know" about the Red Sox stance is what Henry said on the radio the other day. If Theo comes back, you are talking about a guy who twice has been given the GM role and had it taken away from him shortly after. You cannot presume to know how he feels about that or whether he is willing to wait another year to have a shot at the GM position. It's not unreasonable to say that he could very well pursue the same position in another organization this offseason.

+1

Couple of things. The last one of you SoSH's who came by earlier in the thread said the same stuff about using Guillen as a basis for compensation, and this is faulty logic for a couple of reasons (and I hope you address them as the other guy continually ignored them): 1) Theo is being offered a promotion. This isn't manager in Chicago becomes manager in Miami, it is VP of baseball ops/GM becoming President of baseball operations and reporting to only the owner. It's a promotion and a raise, and if you want to talk about precedent, there is plenty of precedent out there of front office guys moving to other organizations for a promotion and compensation is never discussed. 2) The are multiple sources that say that the return that the Sox got for Ozzie was due to alleged tampering by the Marlins for over a year. If you recall there were rumors about this move last season as well. Also, there were rumors of Ozzie signing a 4 year contract with Miami at the same exact time Guillen was in Reinsdorf's office "asking for an extension" aka getting out of his contract so he could go to Florida. There was no permission granted and no known interview for the position. This was worked out behind the scenes, and because of this the Marlins felt obligated to compensate the Sox. I personally don't think that Theo can come back to the Red Sox and co-exist at this point. I am not sure that the relationship is as frayed as its suggested, but the facts are that Epstein has chosen to join the Cubs over the Red Sox. He would rather work some place else. Also, Theo has 1 year left on his contract and reports are out there that Theo already told the Red Sox before the Cubs situation came up that he would be leaving Boston after his contract is up. Maybe it was a negotiating ploy by Theo, who knows. But all the signs point to a reunion between the Red Sox and Theo being short lived at best. Do the Red Sox really want to pay $7 million for a GM that won't be there after this year. Wouldn't the Red Sox rather move on and let the new GM take over with his plan and vision instead of waiting to do it a year from now? That brings me to another point, that there are reports that the Red Sox have already informed Cherington that he will be the new GM. If Theo comes back for this year, Cherington will become a popular candidate to interview for other GM positions, namely Baltimore or Anaheim. Given that he would be interviewing for a promotion, I doubt the Red Sox will stand in his way. I think they'd owe it to him after giving him the GM role twice only to take it back from him. So you risk losing Theo AND Cherington within a year. It's a possibility that with Theo saying he won't be back that Cherington will sit patiently and wait for another season, but its also possible that he wants to make his next career move sooner rather than later, and if that's the case he's gone this offseason most likely. So, on one side you gain $7 million, keep Cherington and get a mid level prospect from the Cubs. On the other you lose $7 million, possibly lose Cherington and get no compensation for Theo. Is that worth taking a hard stance based on principle? I don't mind if the only thing we give up is McNutt and cash, that is fine. But I trust Ricketts' judgement in the matter, and the fact is, we have no idea what the Red Sox are really asking. If Kraplan is right about the Red Sox offer still being insane, its much more than McNutt and cash.