fromthestretch

I wouldn't say they got garbage for the other players. They recevied some very good prospects. The Marlins right now hold all the cards when it comes to Pierre: 1. They've moved so many other players that they've probably cleared enough payroll. I'm sure they'd still prefer to move Pierre, but with Delgado, LoDuca, Lowell, and Beckett off the books, they may choose to keep Pierre if they don't feel they will get enough in return for him. 2. There are a few teams looking for CF help, which can only help drive up the cost in terms of what players will go the Marlins in a trade. Get Wilkerson instead. All of that is true, but. . . There is absolutely no reason for the Marlins to keep Pierre. He is of no use to them next year, other than buying the beer for the under 21 players. My first boss taught me that the key to any negotiation was being willing to walk away without a deal. Call their bluff Jim, I guarantee that even if they can't get someone to overpay, Pierre will not be on their roster in 2006. Let someone else give up the farm, and if they haven't moved him by March, they'll be calling you and begging you to take him for a B-prospect, probably throw in some cash as well. Buying Pierre right now would be like buying an XBox 360 on Ebay. You'll get what you want, but you can get the same thing if you wait a couple of months for a fraction of the cost. I'm not advocating overpaying. As I said at the end of my post, "get Wilkerson instead." Pierre could still bring something at the trade deadline next year if there is a contender that needs an outfielder or leadoff hitter. Yes, they could probably get more now than then, but if they aren't offered what they think is fair, they can wait it out. They don't HAVE to move him. They probably will move him though, and some team may end up paying more than they should. If the Cubs are going to give up something of value, I'd rather them get something better than Pierre. I wouldn't mind Pierre, but if the price is Pie, look elsewhere.

I wouldn't say they got garbage for the other players. They recevied some very good prospects. The Marlins right now hold all the cards when it comes to Pierre: 1. They've moved so many other players that they've probably cleared enough payroll. I'm sure they'd still prefer to move Pierre, but with Delgado, LoDuca, Lowell, and Beckett off the books, they may choose to keep Pierre if they don't feel they will get enough in return for him. 2. There are a few teams looking for CF help, which can only help drive up the cost in terms of what players will go the Marlins in a trade. Get Wilkerson instead.

Why? Let Cedeno start and address the outfield situation instead. If you get good bats for CF and RF, no one should have a problem with Cedeno starting. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't complain if the Cubs did get Lugo. However, I would complain if they panicked due to losing out on Furcal and decided to give up way to much for Lugo when they already have a very solid option on the roster in Cedeno. hey i would love Cedeno to be the starting SS. However, I'm a realist and it's not going to happen with Johnnie B. Baker as the manager. Then Hendry might want to consider offering an apology and a reasonable contract to Nomar.

Why? Let Cedeno start and address the outfield situation instead. If you get good bats for CF and RF, no one should have a problem with Cedeno starting. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't complain if the Cubs did get Lugo. However, I would complain if they panicked due to losing out on Furcal and decided to give up way to much for Lugo when they already have a very solid option on the roster in Cedeno.

Eric Young stole 54 bases as the Cubs' leadoff hitter in 2000 and 31 the following year. Brian McRae stole 37 as the Cubs' leadoff hitter in 1996.

FURCAL. 1) He's better. 2) Why give up prospects for a player five years older that you would probably have to give Fucal-like money in a year to keep? Doesn't make sense. Lugo is only two years older than Furcal...not five.

Heilman isn't a starter for them anymore, and he wasn't very hittable out of the bullpen for them.

Won't happen unless the Sox can spin Floyd to a team he's willing to play for. I heard on XM today that Floyd has a no-trade clause and has said that he will not waive it to go back to Boston.

I agree 100%. If given a similar number of opportunities, there's a possibility that Wuertz/Ohman could outperform Eyre/Howry. Not saying it's going to happen, but it's certainly possible.

What would be the point of having Dave Roberts when you have Pierre? Seems a bit redundant. Besides, it sounds like the Padres are putting him in LF. Considering how much they gave up to get him and the fact that they are planning on having him start in LF, I would think the asking price would be a bit high. Not worth it for what would be a fourth outfielder if the Cubs were somehow able to get both Pierre and Giles.

I don't think they have quite the wind factor as Wrigley. They get their share of wind in Arlington, but the way the stadium is built, you have to hit the ball rather high for the wind to be a factor.

I'm sorry, but the fault lies in your interpretations of my words. Novoa is unreliable. That does not at all assume that he will always be unreliable. What irks me is the fact that I've had to repeat my stance several times that I have no problem with having Novoa in the bullpen, and taking the risk of a less than steller relief corps. I've said Novoa has great stuff with the ability to be a great reliever. He's just shown nothing to do to make me confident that he will be. He's unreliable. He's the very definition of unreliable when discussing pitchers. Why some people are so taken aback from such a simple, uncontroversial, completely dispassionate statement is baffling. Perhaps it's just a discussion. You gave your opinion, I gave mine, others gave theirs. I don't see how anyone has been right or wrong in this. Has living in NY made you bitter? I lived in NJ for three years and certainly came out angrier. :wink: My biggest problem was you lumping him in with Welly, Mitre and Koronka who have been much worse. I also don't agree with your assessment of JVB. I think it's very difficult for anyone to give any kind of assessment of his reliability (good or bad) based on six major league innings.

There are teams that have made the playoffs in recent years with much worse starting rotations than that. I'd be more than happy if they could get another top-of-the-line starter. But the offense is in need of an upgrade moreso than the pitching. When you look at the options, acquiring a top-notch bat is probably going to be easier than acquiring a top-notch starter. Burnett is not worth what he is going to get as a free agent, and with the potential for injury that this team already has, adding another question mark for five years isn't exactly ideal.

Perhaps that reflects more on the need for a manager to bite the bullett sometimes and give his backend guys work, so as to save the good guys from breaking down. Unfortunately I don't see it happening. Dusty will find his 2 or 3 guys, and run them into the ground by July, when he'll whine about needing more relievers. I agree with that. He loves to play the hot hand. If a reliever is throwing well, he won't hesitate to use him every chance he gets. The workload has to be balanced. I was trying to complile a list of pitchers who possibly have been affected by Baker's use/abuse of the pitching staff. You can make a case.. Prior Wood Nen Fox Livan I fear to see who might be next on the list. I think Z might be next unfortunately. We should start a pool. As far as relievers, I'll guess Wuertz.

Perhaps that reflects more on the need for a manager to bite the bullett sometimes and give his backend guys work, so as to save the good guys from breaking down. Unfortunately I don't see it happening. Dusty will find his 2 or 3 guys, and run them into the ground by July, when he'll whine about needing more relievers. I agree with that. He loves to play the hot hand. If a reliever is throwing well, he won't hesitate to use him every chance he gets. The workload has to be balanced.

I'd be much happier with that lineup if Walker was at 2B.

I agree 100% with that. Unfortunately, it appears to be the Cub way. I'm just saying that since we are going to be stuck watching a team with a 12-man pitching staff, I think Novoa is plenty good enough to handle the 11th/12th spot.

Now that i agree with, but to say that he hasn't been unreliable...not really true. And to say that he's been reliable while Farnsworth was not is not an arguable point. I don't believe I ever actually said he was reliable. I just said I didn't think he was completely unreliable. Some seem to view it as black and white, whereas I'm seeing different degrees of reliability. Which is fine; we're all going to view things differently. NO reliever is 100% reliable. But based on the options available and the current needs of the Cubs, I don't find Novoa's reliability or lack thereof to be that big of an issue at the moment. I think he has more upside than a lot of the other options the Cubs have in-house, and I think the potential for reward with him is greater than going out and blowing a chunk of money on relievers who aren't guaranteed to perform much better than he did last year.

As would I. But who says he has to have that role? You know Dusty will want 12 pitchers. Why can't Novoa be the 12th? If JVB beats him out for the role, I certainly won't be upset. But I think Novoa is a much better option than Wellemeyer, Koronka, Mitre, and Bartosh. Let's face it, even the Angels, who a lot of people say had a good bullpen, had guys like Esteban Yan and Kevin Gregg pitch over 60 innings in relief. The Astros had Russ Springer. The White Sox are one of the few teams that got good seasons from all their regular relievers, and that's not exactly common.

What other word could you use to describe him? He's got good stuff, and at times could have a great outing. But overall he sucked. His WHIP was 1.6. That's the very definition of reliable. If he was reliable, you would be willing to bet pretty good money that he'd put up a solid line next season, and I would be willing to bet there aren't many people willing to do that. He's unreliable. You have no idea what he'll give you next year, or on a day-to-day basis. Inconsistent would be a better word. I'm not ready to hand him the closer's role or anything. But considering his stuff, his age, and his low pricetag, I have no problem with him in the bullpen. He certainly doesn't have to be the first, second, or even third person used. Let's face it, with Dusty managing, this team is probably going to carry 12 pitchers for at least a few months of the season. I'd rather him be the 11th or 12th man, than someone making $3 million+ a year who isn't guaranteed to perform much better than Novoa. I don't see how anything you wrote refutes the statement that Novoa is unreliable. Is he unreliable or completely unreliable as you initially stated? Just curious, because to me there is a difference. Farnsworth was unreliable. He was capable of being great, and he was capable of being downright awful. Felix Heredia was completely unreliable. Although I guess if you were relying on him to be awful, then you could view him as reliable. Novoa strung together some good outings last season. He needs to cut back on the walks a bit. I'm optimistic he can do that after looking at his walk rates in the minors. There is no way you can say Farnsworth was unreliable and Novoa was not. Read my posts. As I said, to me there's a difference between unreliable and completely unreliable. Regardless, Novoa shouldn't be counted on at this stage to get the big outs. There's no need to use him as the 8th inning guy in a one-run game. Use him like the Cubs used Borowski in 2002 or Van Poppel the year before (and no, I'm not claiming that he'll match their numbers). But considering cost, age, and potential, you could do a lot worse for your 11th or 12th man in the bullpen. Last year, Novoa wasn't as bad as Farnsworth was in his bad years. At the same time, he wasn't as good as Farnsworth was in his good years. You didn't know which Farnsworth you were going to get from year to year. (NOTE: I was not happy when Farnsworth was dealt.) Let's ask these questions: Would you be entirely upset if Novoa was the Cubs 11th/12th man in the bullpen for less than $500,000? Or would you prefer the Cubs go out and continue to throw $3-4 million at relievers who aren't guaranteed to be much better, when the money could be better used to help the offense? Or would you rather have Welly, Mitre, or Bartosh who have been much worse than Novoa?

I don't know if anyone posted this already or not, but Eyre got a 10th place vote in the NL MVP voting. No slight to Eyre, who had a fine 2005, but whoever gave him a 10th place vote should have their BBWAA voting privileges revoked immediately.

What other word could you use to describe him? He's got good stuff, and at times could have a great outing. But overall he sucked. His WHIP was 1.6. That's the very definition of reliable. If he was reliable, you would be willing to bet pretty good money that he'd put up a solid line next season, and I would be willing to bet there aren't many people willing to do that. He's unreliable. You have no idea what he'll give you next year, or on a day-to-day basis. Inconsistent would be a better word. I'm not ready to hand him the closer's role or anything. But considering his stuff, his age, and his low pricetag, I have no problem with him in the bullpen. He certainly doesn't have to be the first, second, or even third person used. Let's face it, with Dusty managing, this team is probably going to carry 12 pitchers for at least a few months of the season. I'd rather him be the 11th or 12th man, than someone making $3 million+ a year who isn't guaranteed to perform much better than Novoa. I don't see how anything you wrote refutes the statement that Novoa is unreliable. Is he unreliable or completely unreliable as you initially stated? Just curious, because to me there is a difference. Farnsworth was unreliable. He was capable of being great, and he was capable of being downright awful. Felix Heredia was completely unreliable. Although I guess if you were relying on him to be awful, then you could view him as reliable. Novoa strung together some good outings last season. He needs to cut back on the walks a bit. I'm optimistic he can do that after looking at his walk rates in the minors.

What other word could you use to describe him? He's got good stuff, and at times could have a great outing. But overall he sucked. His WHIP was 1.6. That's the very definition of reliable. If he was reliable, you would be willing to bet pretty good money that he'd put up a solid line next season, and I would be willing to bet there aren't many people willing to do that. He's unreliable. You have no idea what he'll give you next year, or on a day-to-day basis. Inconsistent would be a better word. I'm not ready to hand him the closer's role or anything. But considering his stuff, his age, and his low pricetag, I have no problem with him in the bullpen. He certainly doesn't have to be the first, second, or even third person used. Let's face it, with Dusty managing, this team is probably going to carry 12 pitchers for at least a few months of the season. I'd rather him be the 11th or 12th man, than someone making $3 million+ a year who isn't guaranteed to perform much better than Novoa.

Mitre, Novoa, Welly, Koronka and JVB are completely unreliable. The pen right now is Dempster, Eyre, Williamson, Wuertz, Ohman. None of which has a history of consistent great pitching in the bullpen. Rusch/Williams are both garbage time relievers or long guys (while both might be starting in the rotation in April). That being said, if Hendry is just going to keep signing marginal relievers, I'd rather he just ignore it and hope things work out (which is essentially what he's already doing) and focus exclusively on the offense. If a good starter emerges, feel free to improvise. I don't know if I would say that Novoa is completely unreliable. He was shaky at times, but I think he could turn out to be a decent reliever. I don't think anyone has seen enough of JVB at the major league level to lable him an unreliable. Welly, Koronka, and Mitre are guys that could be (and should be) involved as part of any trades the Cubs make. I don't view any of them as particularly effective, and they probably don't have much of a role on the 2006 roster.

As ugly as this offseason has started, I hope it's a closed-casket ceremony.