KingCubsFan

I think we are not as bad off on pitching as some might think, but we need a dependable innings eater who can keep us in ball games for sure. With Hill looking like Zito, Zambrano being Zambrano, one of Marshall, Mateo, and Guzman being good enough to be a back of the rotation starter, and Prior possibly healthy for 07, someone like Padilla would be enough to satisfy me if we spent alot on offense. Good idea! Let's count on Prior again!

http://www.users.muohio.edu/rothkr/joker.gifhttp://www.users.muohio.edu/rothkr/joker.gifhttp://www.users.muohio.edu/rothkr/joker.gif

What you've said here doesn't make sense. we can all agree Paterson is an impatient hitter with a large strike zone. So what requires more change: - Dusty asking him to be his version of a leadoff hitter - Asking him to suddenly develop into a OBP count-working hitter. Clearly the second requires a lot more change than the first. what you're asking of him would be far more destructive to his progress than what Dusty asked of him, IMO. Nobody's asking Patterson to become Bobby Abreu. He's just saying that Baker turned an impatient hitter into an extremely impatient hitter due to his desire to make him into a leadoff hitter, and it probably ruined his career. Look at 2005, when Patterson went down to AAA Games: 24 BB: 8 In the Majors Games: 126 BB:23 Baker's Boys must have clearly been doing something to Corey. I remember someone on this board had something in their profile about Corey's increasing walk rate every year. Well, it plummeted in 2005, and I think it had something to do with Clines and Baker's philosophy. Corey was starting to figure it out on his own, they should have just left him alone.

Except that Dusty and his staff tried to turn him into something he was not: a leadoff hitter. Sure, Corey was fast, but he was brought up in the minors as a middle-of-the order, power-type player. Corey never wanted to be a leadoff hitter; Baker and his staff forced it on him, and that's why he "could not carry what he did in practice and instruction into the batter's box." His lack of plate discipline may have never allowed him to reach his full potential, but he could still have been a very valuable player. Basically, Baker's staff had a potential 30/30 player in CF, and instead of trying to teach him to be more patient to bring out his natural abilities(not necessarily take walks, just not swinging at the first pitch at every at bat), they tried to completely alter his style and make him Lou Brock. It was a disservice to him, the Cubs and the fans. Corey deserves some blame, but the coaching staff (and Hendry to an extent) deserve more.

Well, he had previous success without walking a lot. He may never have put up a .900 OPS, but he could have easily hit .280 with 25 hr's if left lower in the batting order.

Co-sign. Because he also destroyed our top two pitchers, Dusty's treatment of Corey seems to get overlooked. Another career destroyed.

Why is that a more attractive job? Because you'll get to watch expensive players leave after they hit arbitration while managing a team in an empty stadium and having Loria in your ear at all times?

Wasn't this the type of thing people said about Dusty?

but managers shouldn't "rock the boat". they're there to do a simple job--do whatever upper management wants them to do. unfortunately, in our case, that would be a terrible thing, as upper management is even more incompetent than field management. and while i think that girardi rocking the boat would help us in the short-term, the only thing that will help us truly is the deconstruction and reconstruction of the front-office with a team president like sandy alderson, a GM like paul depodesta, and any old ex-player they can find to do an easy job in the field. Why choose Depodesta? He wasn't exactly a success in LA

I don't know about that slugging. His career SLG% in the minors is about .330 and after abandoning switch-hitting, it's still only about .370

This seems to disprove Jim's theory that hitters have a high OBP because they're good hitters and hit for a high batting average. Where are we in stolen bases? Maybe we just need more speed...

Since when did minor league statistics=major league statistics? I must have missed this. If true, our offseason should revolve around doing anything possible to get Jack Cust. We'd have a future MVP. If he played like garbage while he had been up here I would say he isn't capable of doing this. But since he has had 100 at bats up at the big show and has had an OBP of 412 I feel fairly confident in saying he is capable of maintaining his minor league stats. You're right. Let's ignore his minor league history in favor of 100 at bats at the end of a season. You are contradicting yourself. You said "since when did MiL stats = ML stats?" but then you came back and said that minor league stats are indicative of what a player is likely to do in the ML level. Make up your mind. Theriot's MiL OBP's from 2003-2006 were .352, .367, .365, and .367. He's shown the ability to get on base consistently. That trend has continued to the ML level. I don't think he's going to consistently put up a .412 OBP like he has right now, but .360 is realistic. I'm not contradicting myself, you just need to step up your reading comprehension. I did say Minor League stats=/= Major League stats. When I say that, I mean that just because you hit .300 in AAA with 30 Hr's, it is not likely that you will have the same level of performance in your first major league year (Hint:Notice how I talked about Jack Cust). These stats don't magically translate, just ask Calvin Pickering. Just because Theriot put up a .360 OBP in AAA at the age of 26, does not mean he will automatically do this in the majors, and, in my opinion, it is stupid to pencil him in for identical numbers.

Since when did minor league statistics=major league statistics? I must have missed this. If true, our offseason should revolve around doing anything possible to get Jack Cust. We'd have a future MVP. If he played like garbage while he had been up here I would say he isn't capable of doing this. But since he has had 100 at bats up at the big show and has had an OBP of 412 I feel fairly confident in saying he is capable of maintaining his minor league stats. You're right. Let's ignore his minor league history in favor of 100 at bats at the end of a season.

Since when did minor league statistics=major league statistics? I must have missed this. If true, our offseason should revolve around doing anything possible to get Jack Cust. We'd have a future MVP.

if we're going to be choosing a 2b based on raw athleticism, Cedeno would win hands-down. The only reason Theriot would take the job would be based on numbers.

Ryan had a great year with the Jaxx in 2005. Riot did have troubles early in his minor league career, but he has really had a great stride over 2005 & 2006, hitting .304 in 2005 in a tough league followed up by another .304 in AAA. FWIW, Theriot's 2005 season is included in my numbers. I'm only missing this year's numbers

This lineup would also look good if we got Andruw Jones: 1b: Lee 2b: Neifi Perez SS: Izturis 3b: Ramirez LF: Murton CF: Jones RF: Jones C: Barrett Either way, we'd still have a huge hole So you don't think those lineups are capable of scoring runs and aren't playoff quality lineups? No, I think those lineups are capable of scoring runs, but with potentially three holes in the lineup (2B, SS, P) - they probably won't score enough. Combine that with average or below average pitching, and you've got problems. You can't cite the pitchers spot as a gaping hole because there is no better option. The Cubs are in the NL. The pitcher has to bat. How do you know the Cubs will ave "average or below average pitching" as well? You don't. That lineup plus a decent rotation (depending on who they pick up) equals a contending team. I think he is trying to say that, regardless of postition, we would have 3 positions in the batting order that would provide nothing in terms of production. That's not good for a team that would have to rely on its offense. Coincidentally, most of the teams you cited that were good despite having bad 2b were in the AL, so they had the DH to make up for their 2b. As for the pitching, you can't bring up hypotheticals because we don't know what our pitching will be like next year. We could sign Schmidt, Zito, Matsuke, and have Prior come back, and then we wouldn't even need Jones.

What people are saying is that our offense is so bad we can't afford to give him that chance. And if we give up on next season, then there are players more deserving than Theriot that should get a shot. Why would we even consider giving up on next season? Ridiculous. If the choice was between Ronny Cedeno or Ryan Theriot starting at second base next year, who would you pick? I wouldn't think twice before choosing Theriot. We've seen what Cedeno can do playing full time and .612 OPS is horrendous. 23 year-old middle infield prospects typically don't have great offensive seasons in their first full year, particularly when they have been rushed and have had only 1/2 a year of AAA. I think you're giving up on Cedeno too early. While I agree with many that having an Izturis/Cedeno combo would be horrible offensively, I'd rather have it than a Theriot/Izturis combo, simply because Cedeno has more potential. If you're going to rebuild, you should have the players out there with the most potential. And if you're going for the playoffs, you probably shouldn't have either out there with Izturis. Let's just throw out a hypothetical here. What if the Cubs acquired Andruw Jones? A starting lineup of... 1B: Lee 2B: Theriot SS: Izturis 3B: Ramirez LF: Murton CF: Jones RF: Jones C: Barrett would be a solid lineup. Three big bats in the middle along with J. Jones, Barrett, and Murton. You are making it sound like we need a lineup like the Yankees here. This lineup would also look good if we got Andruw Jones: 1b: Lee 2b: Neifi Perez SS: Izturis 3b: Ramirez LF: Murton CF: Jones RF: Jones C: Barrett Either way, we'd still have a huge hole

What people are saying is that our offense is so bad we can't afford to give him that chance. And if we give up on next season, then there are players more deserving than Theriot that should get a shot. Why would we even consider giving up on next season? Ridiculous. If the choice was between Ronny Cedeno or Ryan Theriot starting at second base next year, who would you pick? I wouldn't think twice before choosing Theriot. We've seen what Cedeno can do playing full time and .612 OPS is horrendous. 23 year-old middle infield prospects typically don't have great offensive seasons in their first full year, particularly when they have been rushed and have had only 1/2 a year of AAA. I think you're giving up on Cedeno too early. While I agree with many that having an Izturis/Cedeno combo would be horrible offensively, I'd rather have it than a Theriot/Izturis combo, simply because Cedeno has more potential. If you're going to rebuild, you should have the players out there with the most potential. And if you're going for the playoffs, you probably shouldn't have either out there with Izturis.

Luis Castillo: .722 Mark Ellis: .704 Placido Polanco: .684 Mark Loretta: .723 Ryan Theriot (Minor Leagues): .684 Assuming Theriot's minor league numbers simply translated into major league numbers (which they wouldn't), he'd still be tied for the worst OPS. This isn't a very good argument. Just because some good teams have mediocre 2b doesn't mean we should stick some 27 year-old minor league veteran into our lineup and still expect to win.

I've noticed that, recently, a lot of people have begun promoting Ryan Theriot as a possible starter for next season, while throwing Ronny Cedeno under the bus because he's had one rough season. Although Theriot is having a good run (and continuing it tonight) I think we all need to step back, and be reminded what kind of player he really is: maybe a solid bench player. Minor League Numbers (before this year): 494 Games, .265 avg., .353 OBP, .331 slg, 5 HR's (no this is not a season high, this is his career total over almost 500 games). His numbers might have gone up a bit due to his AAA success, but not too much. In fact, one could argue that Cedeno actually has better career minor league numbers, taking into consideration the fact that while Theriot was usually old for his league, Cedeno was young: 535 games, .265 ang., .318 OBP, .376 slg, 25 HR's. Again, not very impressive, but not terrible considering how rushed he was. How can Theriot possibly be considered an upgrade? Sure, he gets on base more, but a .353 career OBP in the minors should not warrant a starting position on a team looking to make the playoffs. He might prove me wrong and become a good starter, but I don't think his hot streak should overshadow the rest of his career. So, when asked whether Theriot should start next year, be like Snoop and just: http://www.users.muohio.edu/rothkr/snoopsmh.gif

But ultimately, he still doesn't have the production of a number of other pitchers. I'm not saying or arguing that Cain should win the Cy Young award. But I just don't agree at all that he shouldn't be in the discussion. If I had a vote, Carpenter would get it. Look at some of the other guys that have been mentioned: Truffle brought up Cain's 3.75 ERA as reason Cain shouldn't be in the discussion. Ok, so then why did you, vance mention Smoltz (3.71) in PRC and Capuano (3.66) in WS. DKWG mentioned Derek Lowe (3.77). KingCubsFan said Cain didn't deserve it but mentioned Brad Penny (4.04). And as I stated earlier, Cain has the second best OPSA in the National League, with Carpenter being the only pitcher better than Cain. Again, I'm not saying Cain should win it but saying he shouldn't even be in the discussion is ludicrous. I mentioned Penny because he's up there in wins, has a decent amount of K's, and plays for a division-leading team. Not to mention he started the All-Star game. Like it or not, these are the type of things the voters look for, which is why I think he would rank ahead of Cain in Cy Young voting

Matt Cain?? How about Oswalt and his 3.06 ERA and 148 Ks? You lost. I can name some more pitchers with better numbers than Matt Cain: Jason Schmidt, for instance. Josh Johnson. Bronson Arroyo... Along with the ones he mentioned, Brad Penny as well. Hey Snoop, does Matt Cain belong anywhere on this list? http://www.users.muohio.edu/rothkr/snoopsmh.gif u :evil: ?

The difference is that the Twins took just about every precaution with Liriano while the Cubs have been reckless with Prior, Wood and Zambrano. Aside from the pitch counts, I don't see any difference in the way the Twins dealt with Liriano's injury and the way the Cubs have dealt with Prior/Wood. Liriano has been watched very closely. He started out in the bullpen in his first full major league season and then went to the pen. His IP (had he not gotten hurt) would have been in line with his previous two minor league seasons (unlike, say, Prior, who added 50 innings from his rookie season to his second season). You noted the pitch counts. It's a big deal. Liriano is averaging 89.4 pitches/game. In 2003, Prior led the league in P/GS at 113.4. Wood had 109.1 in his rookie year in 1998. Z was at 106.6 P/GS in his first full season as a starter in 2003. You don't want to push young arms anywhere near a breaking point, especially in their first few seasons. The Twins were very careful bringing him back from the injury too - he was brought along slowly. The Cubs don't always seem to show this type of caution bringing back Prior and Wood (especially Wood in 1998 - what was the point of pitching him in Game 3?). You could say there wasn't as much information about pitcher abuse in 2002-03 or even 1998 as there is now. This certainly is true. There's much more information out there and the Twins aren't the only team going to such great lengths to protect their young pitchers. But Dusty still pushes Zamrbano and Hill in a wasted season. In 1998, didn't Wood take over a month off before pitching in the playoffs? And when he did pitch in the playoffs, wasn't he only allowed to throw fastballs and changeups? IMO, the Cubs were more cautious with Wood in '98 than the Twins have been with Liriano's injury. Prior, of course, is a different story.

Just reported on ESPN: Liriano out for year. He said he felt a "pop" in his elbow on the last two pitches before he left. Looks like we won't be seeing him until 2008...