K-Town

I think you may have hit the nail on the head. It may well be that the fans there are more concerned with perpetuating the myth of the Cardinals as a paragon of baseball purity. Unfortunately that myth doesn't extend beyond "Cardinal Nation", which as I once said, is the Malta of fan "Nations". Again, think the player's opinion doesn't speak to much more than docile and bland nature of Cardinal crowds. What makes a crowd "docile" and "bland"? The absence of profanities? The absence of debris flying onto the field? Wearing the team colors religiously? I'll take it....... even if it comes with labels. *head explodes* I think it's best for my mental health and good standing on the forum to leave Rivalries for a week. And for the record, I believe St. Louis would be #29 on JD Drew's list of teams to play for. It was not a good breakup IIRC. Maybe I've forgotten something, but I don't recall any issues between Drew and the Cardinals. The Cards had needs, and the Braves had needs, so he was traded.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head. It may well be that the fans there are more concerned with perpetuating the myth of the Cardinals as a paragon of baseball purity. Unfortunately that myth doesn't extend beyond "Cardinal Nation", which as I once said, is the Malta of fan "Nations". Again, think the player's opinion doesn't speak to much more than docile and bland nature of Cardinal crowds. What makes a crowd "docile" and "bland"? The absence of profanities? The absence of debris flying onto the field? Wearing the team colors religiously? I'll take it....... even if it comes with labels.

Cardinal fans haven't had to worry about their team in quite awhile, though.......... so I'm not sure what you're basing that on. Maybe that's why Cardinal fans are so cooperative....... there really hasn't been alot to complain about in quite awhile.

It's not God's truth. But you don't need God's permission to make the claim, or put a sign up in St. Louis claiming that they ARE the best fans. As for why the players voted for St. Louis fans........ I haven't a clue. As for players flocking to St. Louis instead of other places, you're right......... more often than not, money talks, regardless of how good the fans are. I won't deny that. But ask Scott Rolen or JD Drew if they'd rather play in Philadelphia or St. Louis. Ask Jim Edmonds or Mark McGwire. Ask ANY player. I'm not sure I can remember an instance when a player left St. Louis and said "Thanks God I'm out of that place!". It's almost always rave reviews (save Tino Martinez, who hates the St. Louis fans). Is that exclusive to St. Louis? Probably not. As for hostility, the St. Louis fans will be hostile if it's warranted. Tino Martinez was miserable in St. Louis, and never developed a relationship with the fans. It wasn't because he was horrible (although he definitely was). It was because he made it quite clear that he'd rather be in New York. Gary Templeton didn't make it in St. Louis, because he dissed the fans. Again, I don't know why the players would say that St. Louis fans are the best. I haven't a clue.

So, you're willing to say Dusty Baker is the best manager. I believe there was a poll conducted that indicated such, no? The poll was a survey of the players. The players obviously think that Baker is the best manager (they must like the guy). The players believe that St. Louis has the best fans. Obviously this poll isn't decisive, but if the Sporting News publishes something like that (which seems pretty legitimate), then you can't really blame St. Louis for promoting it. So can you every time you talk about the Cardinals fans make sure to mention what a great manager Dusty is please? It's pretty well-documented that he's a players' manager. Cardinal fans know it. It doesn't surprise me a bit that the players voted for him.

If that lasts past May 15th I'll buy you a hat. Aramis is just starting slow, just like last year. I'm not going to worry about him. I wouldn't really say that Aramis started badly last year, though. His OPS was over .800 in mid-April, and still over .800 after April. That's pretty good, actually. He didn't say Aramis started badly, he said he started slow. Aramis had an OPS over 1.000 after the first week, and an OPS over .800 after April. That's not really "slow", in my opinion. Certainly not comparable to this year, is it?

Which boards? If you're fishing for ammo, you're bound to find some if you look hard enough. It wasn't hard to find. Last night, front page of Cards Talk was as far as I had to go. I'm sure they sounded a lot like the posts here demanding that Z put a fastball in Furcal's ear the next time they play. People say stupid things. On forums they say stupid things with little to no recourse. I'm going to leave this thread because it's silly. Heck, just yesterday, one or two fans on THIS forum suggested that someone should hit Pujols in the head, because he threw his bat after a home run. I don't think that the "best fans" label is based on message board banter. I think that when the MLB players voted for the St. Louis fans as the "best", it had more to do with what they witnessed at the stadiums. I wonder if they'd want to re-vote based on recent behavior at Busch. The Cards fans are not the best fans. Trying to place that label on anyone is homeristic at best and idiotic at the worst. Then the league is full of idiotic players who have somehow been convinced that St. Louis is their home. I'm not placing labels. I'm just telling you what the players said. Obviously I'd like to think that Cardinal fans are the best, but I'm not sure how to measure it, and I haven't witnessed all of the fans in every baseball city like the players have, so it's impossible for me (or you) to say. I wasn't pleased with the recent behavior (booing Izzy and Encrapnacion).

If that lasts past May 15th I'll buy you a hat. Aramis is just starting slow, just like last year. I'm not going to worry about him. I wouldn't really say that Aramis started badly last year, though. His OPS was over .800 in mid-April, and still over .800 after April. That's pretty good, actually.

Which boards? If you're fishing for ammo, you're bound to find some if you look hard enough. It wasn't hard to find. Last night, front page of Cards Talk was as far as I had to go. I'm sure they sounded a lot like the posts here demanding that Z put a fastball in Furcal's ear the next time they play. People say stupid things. On forums they say stupid things with little to no recourse. I'm going to leave this thread because it's silly. Heck, just yesterday, one or two fans on THIS forum suggested that someone should hit Pujols in the head, because he threw his bat after a home run. I don't think that the "best fans" label is based on message board banter. I think that when the MLB players voted for the St. Louis fans as the "best", it had more to do with what they witnessed at the stadiums.

Why? Top prospect? Yes. One of the most 50 valuable players in baseball? No way any 18 year old right out of high school just getting his first sniff of the minors qualifies to be listed as one of the most valuable players in the game. That's absurd. Upton is the only one I listed, but that was only he was the most extreme case, as he's had the least professional experience. His rating is based purely on ceiling and not at all on past performance or current ability. We all know how rarely someone like that pans out. To be fair, I could have put in the time to throw all of the prospects out there, my excluding them shouldn't imply that I think Upton is a future flop or overrated. The title of the article is a little misleading. If you read the intro., it stipulates that this is a list of players that you would want to "draft", if all slates were wiped clean and you were starting a franchise. It's not really a list of "Most Valuable Players", per se.

If I wanted to win for the next 2 or 3 years, I'd probably take Carpenter over Zambrano, but if I was guessing who would end up having the better career, I'd definitely go with Zambrano.

Do you mean that the Cardinal fans convinced the players to vote for them?

So, you're willing to say Dusty Baker is the best manager. I believe there was a poll conducted that indicated such, no? The poll was a survey of the players. The players obviously think that Baker is the best manager (they must like the guy). The players believe that St. Louis has the best fans. Obviously this poll isn't decisive, but if the Sporting News publishes something like that (which seems pretty legitimate), then you can't really blame St. Louis for promoting it.

In all fairness, you almost HAVE to give the Sporting News survey some credence. I mean, it wasn't even close. St. Louis was at the top with 46%, and Boston was next, with 13%. I'm not saying that there aren't flaws in a survey like that, but it's a pretty decisive number.

Yeah, but Pujols walked 3 times. Time to switch 'em in the lineup!!

Why is it lame, though. I think that EVERY town should claim to have the best fans. It's like Chicago saying "we have the best pizza". Obviously there's nothing to document that, but I don't have a problem with them saying it....... I wouldn't argue with them! First of all, chicago DOES have the best pizza in the world. A triple blind taste test performed by me proved it...undeniably. Why is it lame? I don't know. It just is. Partly because so many St. Louisians really believe it and talk about it. Go over to cards talk for proof. They're constantly talking about TBBFIA, BBBF, TBBFIAAOUST. Now they've got billboards. Outside of NY, I can't think of another American city that toots its own horn more than StL. And that's weird, because there's really not much to crow about. For the record, though, a billboard like that would be lame in any town, not just StL. Eh.......it's just a promotional thing (like the pizza). Nothing more. Indiana claims to be "the crossroads of America" on their billboards. Maine claims to be "The Way Life Should Be". You've got that sort of thing everywhere....... not just St. Louis.

Elconq is really getting behind on his updates. I'll help :wink: : J. Edmonds doubled to deep left center, A. Pujols and D. Eckstein scored.

Why is it lame, though. I think that EVERY town should claim to have the best fans. It's like Chicago saying "we have the best pizza". Obviously there's nothing to document that, but I don't have a problem with them saying it....... I wouldn't argue with them!

Yeah, I've always thought that if you feel the need to always tell everyone how great of a fan you are, you're just seeking confirmation of the same. Truly good fans don't really care about that stuff. It's all about the game, if you ask me. I agree with almost everything you say, especially the first paragraph. However, I DO find myself caring if Cardinal fans boo their own players, because I think they should be better than that. I don't like it. But yeah, "best fans" is a bit over the top.

No bleachers for me. The luxury of Redbird Club access and seats in section 249 for Friday, the Ozzie Smith party room on Saturday, and back to Redbird club access and sec 250 for Sunday. I'll be in my Cubs attire and rooting them to victory, so I'll report back on how well I'm received by the "Best Fans in Baseball." Last time I was there (all decked out in Cubs gear), I was treated to chants of "1908", "wait 'til next year", etc., etc.... I ignored them all, and it did test my patience. However, to retaliate would only encourage them and draw more blather. Besides, I would look just as moronic as they do if I did that. 8) It's only moronic if you're outnumbered. :D

Well I guess we'll see the result of the investigation, but I think the investigation is just a thinly disguised method to try to get Barry to retire, and to appease the fans and government. I don't think baseball wants Barry to break the HR record. But I think it's a moot point anyway, because like I said. I don't think any of them will get the necessary votes. I don't think so, either.

I agree..... it's stupid, and something I'm not proud of. I hope it's just bandwagoners there (not real fans) to see the new stadium.

Pete Rose would disagree. Pete Rose made deal that kept him out of the HOF, didn't he? I believe he did, but it was because he broke a baseball rule...so did Sosa, Bonds and McGwire. While it's not in the baseball rulebook, in 1991, Fay Vincent sent a memothat stated Pete Rose was scrutinzed for his behavior, why should these guys be scrutinized? Life isn't fair...these guys are not going to be treated "like everyone else". They enjoyed the fruits of their success from the illegal substance, they made their bed, and now they get to sleep in it. I don't feel sorry for them or feel that they are being wronged somehow for having to pay for the things they've done. You're right....... Pete Rose was scrutinized. These guys are scrutinized. If McGwire or Bonds or Sosa want to cut a deal to keep them out of the HOF, then I won't feel sorry for them. I would have to assume that there was something that Pete Rose wanted to hide, and that's why he made the deal. If there's something likewise on McGwire (or any other player), then the commish can present it to them, and ask them if they want a "deal". So be it. Up to now, I don't think that the commish has anything to warrant such a deal being made.

Segregation and PEDs are 2 different issues. Unless we're talking Cap Anson, it's hard to fault an old player for playing against the competition he was put against. No, I don't want to punish an old guy. My point is that baseball typically realizes that they did something wrong, and corrects it, and moves on. They didn't go back and try to asterisk any records, or try to adjust numbers to account for the lack of non-white players. They recognized that something wasn't right, they corrected it, and moved on......... and nobody thinks anything of it today.

Pete Rose would disagree. Pete Rose made deal that kept him out of the HOF, didn't he?