K-Town

They're a difinitive source, in the context of what we were discussing. They have interaction with fans, and players from other teams. I'm sure that's what they're basing their opinions on. What do YOU think they're basing their opinions on? As pointed out, it's not a scientific poll, but it works for the context that we need it to work. Just because a player gives a team a discount because he thinks the fans are great, does not make it so. By the same token, an unfair, outdated players poll doesn't prove it either. In the players' opinion, it is so. That's all that matters, in the context of what we're talking about. The poll is only a year and a half old. You think that Cardinal fans have done something to go from 50% (verses 13% for 2nd place) to something much less than that? The poll wasn't even close.

Here you go....... Cardsfaninchicago said it better than I did. . As for the "best manager in baseball", if you were to make an argument that the players thing that he's the best manager, and used that poll as your source, I wouldn't dispute it.

They're a difinitive source, in the context of what we were discussing. They have interaction with fans, and players from other teams. I'm sure that's what they're basing their opinions on. What do YOU think they're basing their opinions on? As pointed out, it's not a scientific poll, but it works for the context that we need it to work.

I don't think it's Scientific poll or anything nor does it prove we are the “greatest baseball fans” but I think it does show a general attitude players have about st. louis and why they want to play there. Hence, I think we get an above avg amount of "friendly" contracts. Thank you. That's what I was getting at.

The players have spoken. So if we use that as proof as Cardinal fans as the best fans, we also have to say Dusty Baker is the best manager. You agree with that, K-town? (or don't you take the players word for it?) I agree that the players think that Dusty Baker is the best manager and that St. Louis has the best fans. That's what the players believe. It's their opinion. In the context of the discussion we were having, that's all that matters. So, what you're saying is that just because the players think something doesn't make it so. Therefore, their opinion on best manager or best fans means nothing in deciding the truth or validity of those statements. Therefore, we're back to the fact that the idea that the Cardinals have the best fans is an unsubstantiated myth and that St. Louis is the best baseball town is furthermore an unsubstantiated myth. It's substantiated in the context of what we were talking about earlier, which is what brought it up in the first place.

The fans didn't say it. The players did. So, do you believe they are 'baseball's best fans'? I don't know. I'm not that familiar with fans of most other teams. I know some Red Sox fans, and they're terrific. Players would be a better judge than I would, probably.

The drug issue has changed dramatically over the last 2 years. Fan support hasn't. I could see how the numbers would change if the drug testing was asked today, but I'm not sure why there would be much of a change of opinion on "best fans". I'm not saying that I agree with them or disagree with them about anything. I'm just telling you what they believe, and in the context of what we were talking about, that's relevant.

Who says I'm "embracing" anything? You're the first Cardinal fan that actually agrees that they have the best fans. It's impossible to judge, and that survey is a joke. You have AL players who have never been to half the NL parks voting with the same weight as someone who spent 15 years in the NL. Not that the players are any definitive source as to who has the "best fans" anyway. If 2nd place were close, you'd have a legitimate grip. 46% (compared to 13% for 2nd place) is pretty decisive, in my opinion. And what, 45% of those surveyed don't even go to Busch that year? Nevermind the fact that the player's aren't a definitive source, or that the poll is two and a half years old. Did you read the footnote? Nearly two thirds (65.2%) of players with 10 years' experience favored St. Louis, and 26.4% of AL players voted for St. Louis. That means that, actually, an even HIGHER percentage of the NL players believe that they have the best fans. The players are a difinitive source, in the context of what we were discussin.

The fans didn't say it. The players did.

The players have spoken. So if we use that as proof as Cardinal fans as the best fans, we also have to say Dusty Baker is the best manager. You agree with that, K-town? (or don't you take the players word for it?) I agree that the players think that Dusty Baker is the best manager and that St. Louis has the best fans. That's what the players believe. It's their opinion. In the context of the discussion we were having, that's all that matters.

Who says I'm "embracing" anything? You're the first Cardinal fan that actually agrees that they have the best fans. It's impossible to judge, and that survey is a joke. You have AL players who have never been to half the NL parks voting with the same weight as someone who spent 15 years in the NL. Not that the players are any definitive source as to who has the "best fans" anyway. If 2nd place were close, you'd have a legitimate grip. 46% (compared to 13% for 2nd place) is pretty decisive, in my opinion.

Who says I'm "embracing" anything? You're the one who brought the crap up. In context of the discussion we were having. Not in the context of embracing anything.

Nope. That's all I've got. I just wanted you to know that it's not just "my opinion".

Who says I'm "embracing" anything?

That is just an unsubstantiated myth. Well, "best baseball town" might be a myth, but they have the best fans, which to me makes them the best baseball town. Best fans is also a myth. You can't substantiate it. In your opinion, they might have the best fans, but you know what they say about opinions... I can substantiate it, and it's not even that close. Unless the players' opinions don't matter to you. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/07/01/survey/

I think that's reasonable. I know that other teams have players who are willing to take "home town discounts", just because of the famiarity, but St. Louis is well-known as the best baseball town, and I think that there are more players willing to take a bit of a financial hit to play there. That is just an unsubstantiated myth. Well, "best baseball town" might be a myth, but they have the best fans, which to me makes them the best baseball town.

Ryne Sandberg, anyone? This is ridiculous. Except Ryno didn't lose his hair until he was 40. Are you suggesting Pujols is 40? :shrug: I'm not "suggesting" anything. No need to try to read between any lines. It's ridiculous, and that's what I said.

I think that's reasonable. I know that other teams have players who are willing to take "home town discounts", just because of the famiarity, but St. Louis is well-known as the best baseball town, and I think that there are more players willing to take a bit of a financial hit to play there.

It is a "bargain" because I do think he's the best player in the game. However, it wasn't a "hometown discount" like McGwire's. Pujols himself said, "No hometown discounts." And arbitration is a crapshoot. Yeah, he could've been awarded $20 million (although I don't think his agent would've asked for that, but you get my point) or he could've been awarded $6 million (a figure the Cards could have offered and would still be a nice raise over his 2004 salary). Neither side wanted to take a chance. But taking an average of $14 million is not a hometown discount. Pujols said "no hometown discount" because he was in bargaining mode, at the time. What do you think he was going to say? "Anything they want to offer me is fine"? He wanted to stay in St. Louis, but he's not braindead. Maybe it wasn't a hometown discount. Maybe Edmonds' relatively cheap salary isn't, either. Maybe Carpenter's isn't. Maybe Morris' isn't. Maybe Jocketty is just a genius. Either way is fine with me. Steve Kline is on record as saying that he wishes he had taken less money to play in St. Louis this year. That didn't go over well in Baltimore, but he said it, nontheless. As far as Carp goes, he wasn't going to get any more from anyone else. Sure he has had a great season and a half, but he still has to be considered an injury risk based on the bulk of his career. 1 1/2 great seasons doesn't get you big money. He'd have been a fool to turn down any kind of long term deal. His comments made it sound like a "home town discount": "It's very exciting for me and my family. It's exciting to be part of the Cardinals team for several more years," Carpenter said before Friday's game against the Milwaukee Brewers. "It's good to know the players, the manager and the general manager who are going to be around. It plays into wanting to be part of this team." "Basically my other option was to pitch the season and then look into the free agent market, or get it done now and know that for the next three years I was going to be where I wanted to play," he said. "There's a lot of stability in this organization. Everybody here is pretty solid in the direction they're going. There is no transition. I wasn't going to go somewhere just for the money and take the chance of being miserable."

It is a "bargain" because I do think he's the best player in the game. However, it wasn't a "hometown discount" like McGwire's. Pujols himself said, "No hometown discounts." And arbitration is a crapshoot. Yeah, he could've been awarded $20 million (although I don't think his agent would've asked for that, but you get my point) or he could've been awarded $6 million (a figure the Cards could have offered and would still be a nice raise over his 2004 salary). Neither side wanted to take a chance. But taking an average of $14 million is not a hometown discount. Pujols said "no hometown discount" because he was in bargaining mode, at the time. What do you think he was going to say? "Anything they want to offer me is fine"? He wanted to stay in St. Louis, but he's not braindead. Maybe it wasn't a hometown discount. Maybe Edmonds' relatively cheap salary isn't, either. Maybe Carpenter's isn't. Maybe Morris' isn't. Maybe Jocketty is just a genius. Either way is fine with me. Steve Kline is on record as saying that he wishes he had taken less money to play in St. Louis this year. That didn't go over well in Baltimore, but he said it, nontheless.

I understand what you are saying but have you ever noticed how players sign discounts and waive no-trade clauses just to play in st louis? I love the short memories. Seems to me in the early spring Pujols was getting ripped by fans and media in St. Louis for proclaiming, "No hometown discount". But he did give them a discount. Wasn't it 7 yrs/$105? I don't know the structure and that is cheap for the best player in the game, but I don't consider that a discount considering he had only put in 4 years prior to the contract. How many arbitration only eligible players get that kind of raise? It was 7 years, $100 mil (a little over 14 mil per year). He would have been eligible for arbitration anyway....... who knows how much he would have gotten? And he would have been free agent eligible after 2006. I'm not sure there's any way to not view it as a "bargain", considering he's the best player in baseball (maybe A-rod is, but a case could be made for Pujols).

I understand what you are saying but have you ever noticed how players sign discounts and waive no-trade clauses just to play in st louis? I love the short memories. Seems to me in the early spring Pujols was getting ripped by fans and media in St. Louis for proclaiming, "No hometown discount". But he did give them a discount.

Becasue he took four steps before he started running, after a gigantic home run? Are you serious?

Ryne Sandberg, anyone? This is ridiculous.

Stop saying "Cardinal fans", and show me one. Just one......... Show you one? There have been plenty of discussions regarding Sammys hop while he was here, and alot of the Cardinal fans always said how disrespectful and unsportsmanlike it was. If you want to wear your rose colored glasses about it thats fine, but its the truth. Reggie Sanders doesn't hop after every deep fly ball that he hits. You're reaching.