Exile on Waveland

You can't compare basketball and baseball. i just did. oh, and the dunk contest was insane Well, OK, you can. But that doesn't make it logical. A point guard in basketball just might have a bit more influence on a game than a baseball shortstop. Just maybe.

I think the last IU coaching search is evidence enough that Indiana isn't going to get some top of the line coach in to replace Sampson. I expect it to be Dakich, and I'm fine with that. Who else did they pursue? I can't remember. I seem to remember them just picking Sampson out of the blue. What I don't understand is why they can't get a top line coach. I mean, I suppose possible sanctions could be a deterrent, but it's one of the premier programs in the country, and you don't even have big shoes to fill anymore. After Davis and K-Sanc, as long as you don't burn down Assembly Hall, people will be happy. No one is exactly sure who they pursued. Rumor has it they pursued Rick Pitino and Steve Alford before settling on Davis. But, two years ago, Greenspan played it very close to the vest. Which was good, however bad the final decision was. It's likely he was interested in Kevin Stallings, whom he hired at Illinois State. Probably will be again. Money is the biggest factor. IU simply cannot afford to pay a coach like some other schools, mainly due to their football failings. However, I doubt the sanctions have much affect. UK got Pitino, Ohio State Matta, etc., while sanctioned. I doubt Dakich is the next coach beyond interim (I hope; though he'd honestly be an upgrade over the past two coaches when factoring in coaching and ethics).

Michigan State isn't even close to being top 10 worthy. See the loss to Penn State a couple of weeks ago. I don't understand there problem, they have the talent. There coach is good, I guess just a bad blend. I think a hell of a lot of Izzo as a coach, but he's really had some underachieving teams lately in my opinion. No one ever says this since Izzo is so revered (I like him a lot, too), but Michigan State has been the most underachieving Big Ten team over the past 5-6 years or so.

You can't compare basketball and baseball.

Self needs a FF to shut people up. It's that simple. (But then it will be NC choker talk.) It may not be fair, but that's the way it is, and he isn't the first coach to go through it. Dean, Lute, Donavan, and Roy were all labeled as chokers. It's just the way it works. Those guys, however, had the ability to coach their way out of a wet paper bag. Self, not so much. One of the worst in game coaches I've ever seen. And I'm an Illini fan who thought that when he was here. I harbor no ill will toward Kansas for taking him because, while in the short run Illinois may struggle, the players that do come here will get the most out of their talent as opposed to floundering in the hi-low under Self. And Illinois will be good again and in the tourney next year anyway. if he's bad, how come his teams are near the top in defensive and offensive efficiency? People who badmouth his coaching never have any concrete criticism other than his team lost XXX game. It's silly. I mean, you're sitting there talking about the hi-lo, and we don't even run the hi-lo as a primary offense. But Illini fans talk like that's all he does. Self is not a top-5 coach. I'll admit that. But he is one of the premier coaches in college hoops. You don't win as much as he does if you're not. And don't throw the talent thing out there, because he coached ORU out of the depths, and he won with mid-major talent at Tulsa, too. I've only seen one poorly coached team by Self, and that was the Bucknell/KU team. The big reason Self looks good is because his teams are more talented than about 90 percent of the teams they play. That's why his numbers will always be really pretty. However, when he plays one of those other teams, usually around the elite eight, he is going to be exposed. He is terrible at in game adjustments. I am still waiting for us to adjust and take away the three against Notre Dame. eh, I won't bother arguing it anymore. Your coach has been starting chet frazier over mccamey all year. I think know who's better. Awesome response. At what point have I done anything but blast Weber this year? Especially when it comes to that decision. Although your coach starts Russell Robinson over a much more talented Sherron Collins. Oh and Weber has coached a team to the grandest stage of college basketball and built a program. Which one of those has the great Bill Self done again? Please say Tulsa. Big deal. Lots of mediocre coaches have "coached on the grandest stage." Probably just as many as have turned a NC contender into a bottom dweller in a terrible conference. And who have overseen a program where one player left another for dead. No, Self has never "built a program." He's never had to. Doesn't mean he couldn't. At least Self has a rationale for starting Robinson. (Team leader, better defender). ANd at least he tries to conform his offense to his players, unlike Bruce "I'm gonna run this guard oriented motion offense despite my guards' mediocrity" Weber. This argument is pointless, though. You're happy with Bruce and all his flaws. I'm happy with Self and his. Right I guess Weber saying that he starts Frazier because he is our leader and best defender is somehow different from Self doing it. But since Weber doesn't coach at Kansas that makes him foolish. You play your best. Neither of these two clowns get that. Also ask Jay Bilas about our terrible conference. 9 years in a row we have had a team in the final four. 9. Maybe the Big 12 should get a little more terrible. You realize that the Big 12 has less championships as a conference than IU does. Get the hell out of here with calling the Big 10 terrible. That might fly if you are the ACC or the Big East, but not when you are a fan of the pathetic Big 12. I agree with what saying; however, Bilas was wrong. In 2006, no Big Ten teams made the final four (Florida, UCLA, LSU, George Mason). Nor did the 2003 or 2004 Final Fours. I think Bilas meant to say the Big Ten has sent nine teams to the last nine Final Fours. Either way it is better than the Big 12 has done. The Big 10 is down compared to what it normally is, but it is still head and shoulders better than the Big 12. Agreed. I just don't like factual inaccuracies on ESPN or any other major media source. It's annoying.

Recent? I thought we have sucked recently. You are grasping at straws. You have one great program and some decent ones. I like us to get more teams in the dance again than you guys again this year in our down year. The Big Ten has the Nos. 7, 15, 16, 30 and 31 teams in Sagarin; Nos. 14, 15, 29, 30 and 36 kenpom. I don't think that's terrible at all.

Self needs a FF to shut people up. It's that simple. (But then it will be NC choker talk.) It may not be fair, but that's the way it is, and he isn't the first coach to go through it. Dean, Lute, Donavan, and Roy were all labeled as chokers. It's just the way it works. Those guys, however, had the ability to coach their way out of a wet paper bag. Self, not so much. One of the worst in game coaches I've ever seen. And I'm an Illini fan who thought that when he was here. I harbor no ill will toward Kansas for taking him because, while in the short run Illinois may struggle, the players that do come here will get the most out of their talent as opposed to floundering in the hi-low under Self. And Illinois will be good again and in the tourney next year anyway. if he's bad, how come his teams are near the top in defensive and offensive efficiency? People who badmouth his coaching never have any concrete criticism other than his team lost XXX game. It's silly. I mean, you're sitting there talking about the hi-lo, and we don't even run the hi-lo as a primary offense. But Illini fans talk like that's all he does. Self is not a top-5 coach. I'll admit that. But he is one of the premier coaches in college hoops. You don't win as much as he does if you're not. And don't throw the talent thing out there, because he coached ORU out of the depths, and he won with mid-major talent at Tulsa, too. I've only seen one poorly coached team by Self, and that was the Bucknell/KU team. The big reason Self looks good is because his teams are more talented than about 90 percent of the teams they play. That's why his numbers will always be really pretty. However, when he plays one of those other teams, usually around the elite eight, he is going to be exposed. He is terrible at in game adjustments. I am still waiting for us to adjust and take away the three against Notre Dame. eh, I won't bother arguing it anymore. Your coach has been starting chet frazier over mccamey all year. I think know who's better. Awesome response. At what point have I done anything but blast Weber this year? Especially when it comes to that decision. Although your coach starts Russell Robinson over a much more talented Sherron Collins. Oh and Weber has coached a team to the grandest stage of college basketball and built a program. Which one of those has the great Bill Self done again? Please say Tulsa. Big deal. Lots of mediocre coaches have "coached on the grandest stage." Probably just as many as have turned a NC contender into a bottom dweller in a terrible conference. And who have overseen a program where one player left another for dead. No, Self has never "built a program." He's never had to. Doesn't mean he couldn't. At least Self has a rationale for starting Robinson. (Team leader, better defender). ANd at least he tries to conform his offense to his players, unlike Bruce "I'm gonna run this guard oriented motion offense despite my guards' mediocrity" Weber. This argument is pointless, though. You're happy with Bruce and all his flaws. I'm happy with Self and his. Right I guess Weber saying that he starts Frazier because he is our leader and best defender is somehow different from Self doing it. But since Weber doesn't coach at Kansas that makes him foolish. You play your best. Neither of these two clowns get that. Also ask Jay Bilas about our terrible conference. 9 years in a row we have had a team in the final four. 9. Maybe the Big 12 should get a little more terrible. You realize that the Big 12 has less championships as a conference than IU does. Get the hell out of here with calling the Big 10 terrible. That might fly if you are the ACC or the Big East, but not when you are a fan of the pathetic Big 12. I agree with what saying; however, Bilas was wrong. In 2006, no Big Ten teams made the final four (Florida, UCLA, LSU, George Mason). Nor did the 2003 or 2004 Final Fours. I think Bilas meant to say the Big Ten has sent nine teams to the last nine Final Fours.

Self needs a FF to shut people up. It's that simple. (But then it will be NC choker talk.) It may not be fair, but that's the way it is, and he isn't the first coach to go through it. Dean, Lute, Donavan, and Roy were all labeled as chokers. It's just the way it works. Those guys, however, had the ability to coach their way out of a wet paper bag. Self, not so much. One of the worst in game coaches I've ever seen. And I'm an Illini fan who thought that when he was here. I harbor no ill will toward Kansas for taking him because, while in the short run Illinois may struggle, the players that do come here will get the most out of their talent as opposed to floundering in the hi-low under Self. And Illinois will be good again and in the tourney next year anyway. if he's bad, how come his teams are near the top in defensive and offensive efficiency? People who badmouth his coaching never have any concrete criticism other than his team lost XXX game. It's silly. I mean, you're sitting there talking about the hi-lo, and we don't even run the hi-lo as a primary offense. But Illini fans talk like that's all he does. Self is not a top-5 coach. I'll admit that. But he is one of the premier coaches in college hoops. You don't win as much as he does if you're not. And don't throw the talent thing out there, because he coached ORU out of the depths, and he won with mid-major talent at Tulsa, too. I've only seen one poorly coached team by Self, and that was the Bucknell/KU team. The big reason Self looks good is because his teams are more talented than about 90 percent of the teams they play. That's why his numbers will always be really pretty. However, when he plays one of those other teams, usually around the elite eight, he is going to be exposed. He is terrible at in game adjustments. I am still waiting for us to adjust and take away the three against Notre Dame. That was an archetypal poorly coached game. Also, Dee Brown was completely out of control. I thought Illinois was a lock for the Sweet 16 that year; I had actually predicted Bruce Pearl's UW-Milwaukee team to upset Notre Dame (would've been right save a missed layup).

His sister, Kathi, was the head women's basketball coach at IU previously. Not sure how that might factor in. Sean Miller and Brad Brownell would also hopefully be on the list.

As I'm sure somebody else has already said, this makes the most financial sense for IU considering the clause in Sampson's contract about violations. If they do it now they'll get hit with the wrongful termination suit, but if they just suspend him now and wait until the June hearing/conviction to axe him they're fine. Exactly. Sampson's contract allows a "just cause" firing due to any violations. However, as a public employee, he is protected by due process. He hasn't yet had a chance to defend himself -- that won't come until June. The University can either a) fire him now and risk a wrongful termination suit a la Jim O'Brien-OSU; b) suspend him indefinitely and fire him later; or c) negotiate a buyout package and terminate him now. The best option is probably b), as it allows them to save face in the meantime and, eventually, dismiss him free of any buyout (assuming the NCAA is correct about the violations).

That's about what I'd expect. Middle of the pack Big Ten and NCAA tournament berth, assuming no big defections because of the Sampson/NCAA situation. I'd say a team that can do that has a solid core, but that's just semantics. I just meant that a new coach at IU next year wouldn't be walking into a 8-24 disaster. Without mass defections, I doubt next year's talent level keeps a coach from coming to IU. If Ebanks shows up you should be pretty good, if this plays out bad and he is let out. Well you could be pretty bad too. If the recruiting class doesn't show up, then there will be basically no size to speak of at all. Nor any depth. IU would be totally reliant on whatever last minute recruits (JUCO's) the new coach could pull in for depth and inside play. With the recruiting class, IU figures to be pretty good. Not great, but pretty good. From what I'm hearing, Sampson's job is in serious jeopardy. Immediately. I'm starting to doubt he coaches this weekend, though it may be via suspension not dismissal due to legal ramifications.

That's about what I'd expect. Middle of the pack Big Ten and NCAA tournament berth, assuming no big defections because of the Sampson/NCAA situation. I'd say a team that can do that has a solid core, but that's just semantics. I just meant that a new coach at IU next year wouldn't be walking into a 8-24 disaster. Without mass defections, I doubt next year's talent level keeps a coach from coming to IU.

IU is not going to go after Bruce Pearl. Pearl will never work in the Big Ten. I would imagine IU looks at Licklighter, Anthony Grant, Scott Drew, or Sean Miller. Hell maybe they even try and get Matta, he grew up a huge IU fan. No way would Lickliter or Matta leave. Lick isn't a true Hoosier like our last guy. He already left the one school he had loyalty and ties to. I think Iowa is a better fit for his personality than IU. Miller would be a good target. Thank you Exile for talking about Drew, I was about to say the same thing when I saw his name mentioned. I laughed a couple weeks ago when the national media was praising him after that 5 OT win for how much he's cleaned up that program and the amazing turnaround he's had. Well yeah the turnaround has been something, but it's not so amazing when you hear about how he's done it. Please IU, please bring Steve back home. It would be so sweet to beat him at a "real basketball school" when he's "back in red" and hear what excuses he would come up with. I actually liked Alford a fair amount and defended him quite a bit when he was here, but he did himself no favors on the way out. IU offers and Licklighter is gone in a second. You would blink and he would be driving out of Iowa City. What are you basing that off of? Obviously IU is a superior program and no one would dispute that. But IU would be facing sanctions that could really make it tough on him and don't return a ton. He has a 7 year contract paying him roughly the same that IU was paying Sampson and would have to pay a $3M buyout if he left. He's not a quick fix guy and knows he has patience and time at Iowa. That wouldn't be the case at IU. We have $40M worth of renovations to Carver plus a new practice facility coming that he's helped put together. He has no ties to IU at all. Plus he's a really low-key guy who doesn't enjoy a lot of limelight. Maybe you're right. Like I said no one would argue that the IU job is a better gig. I just don't think the timing is right and I think the Iowa job fits his personality better. Couple things: 1. IU actually returns a solid core next year. Crawford and Bassett both average double figures and Ellis goes for 7.3 ppg, 7.6 rpg and 4.0 apg. They also have a four-star center sidelined with an injury (however, that player, Eli Holman, looked a long, looooong way away from being ready). They are going to have major issues inside, however. Who knows what will happen with the recruiting class, as well. Regardless, IU shouldn't be devoid of talent at all. 2. I still don't think the sanctions will be debilitating, especially if IU does the right thing and dismisses Sampson. I'm unsure if IU would even look at Lickliter, or if he'd jump, but IU fans would love him and his style, in my opinion.

Time and again? They hired Sampson, but that's not "time and again." That's simply once. This is the same school that fired Coach Knight and kept Mike Davis for six years -- I'd say they care very little about winning. I don't like Sampson and didn't want him hired, but the administration has made one mistake regarding rules. I've also very rarely, if ever, defended IU's administration. If they don't fire him, then it'll be two. Sampson does have a clause in his contract stating he can be fired for just cause if he violates any rules. However, as a public employee, he has a right to due process. (I'm a law student, not an attorney, so feel free to correct me anyone.) If Sampson is let go before June, IU would either open itself up to a lawsuit a la Jim O'Brien-Ohio State or they'd have to negotiate a buyout. I wanted Scott Skiles or Mike Montgomery last time. Still do. i think by the time knight got fired, many had felt that the game had passed him by. the quality of recruits he was bringing in just wasn't cutting it. i really think that they wanted to hire or promote an african-american for recruiting purposes. davis prolonged his tenure with an appearance in the nc game, plus, he was bringing in fairly decent recruits--he just couldn't do anything with them. they obviously brought in sampson to go after gordon, thinking that he would get them back to elite status as a major destination for top high school talent-sampson has also brought in devin ebanks, and like i said, firing samspon will only be a last resort as an act of good faith toward the ncaa--it will be a risk/reward situation--if they lose ebanks, they will want to make sure that they don't get levied with heavy sanctions, but if they aren't going to get punished much, they might as well keep sampson and ebanks. they ignored his reputation when they hired him, they ignored his phone violations, essentially slapping him on the wrist and firing a coach who didn't know sampson at ou. they've wagered everything on sampson and his recruiting tactics and it's blown up in their faces, i have absolutely no sympathy for them, in fact, i can't help but admit a healthy bit of schadenfreude, as an illini fan. i hope the next coach does things the right way, i've always had respect for the iu program and view the job as a top 5 one nationally. When Coach Knight was fired at IU, the roster was stocked with three future NBA players (two top-16 draft picks). Included was top-5 prospect Jared Jeffries, who Coach Knight had just beat out Duke for. His incoming class was one of the best in the nation; along with Zach Randolph, JJ was considered the best incoming freshman. His recruiting had slipped in the mid-90's -- because he left it to his assistant's and the state of Indiana dried up -- but it had rebounded emphatically. (The Patterson-Miller-Reed class was actually another top-5 class. He also reeled in Jason Collier and Luke Recker. Recruiting talent wasn't the issue, it was recruiting talent that could play for Coach Knight.) Davis was certainly protected for public relations reasons; there is no doubt about this. It has all but been admitted. But he was NOT recruiting well -- unless you think a team made up of entirely shooting guards can win. Davis was an unmitigated disaster on the recruiting trails while at IU. I will not, and cannot, defend the hiring of Sampson. I was distraught when he was named coach, I'm apoplectic now. That was a tragic mistake by the administration. However, besides that, they have proved intimately concerned with violations. IU has perhaps the best compliance system in big-time collegiate athletics. The oversight committee caught Sampson's wrongdoings. IU then self-reported to the NCAA. The school then hired outside counsel, the very well respected Ice Miller, to conduct an independent investigation and advise them how to proceed. After the report, they self-imposed sanctions and again reported to the NCAA. This is way more than most schools would have done -- especially regarding phone calls. The next step will be Sampson's dismissal, which I think is certain to come. It's just a matter of time -- it may not be until due process has run its course in June. Indiana is a top program that has always done things the right way. The administration mortgaged that reputation with Sampson and is now paying for it dearly. And will continue to pay for in the coming years. I just hope they do the right thing and clean up the mess they got the program into.

with out giving it much thought so far, i'm interested in looking at Scott Drew at Baylor. You do NOT want Scott Drew to follow Kelvin Sampson. Drew as a clean-up specialist is laughable. i honestly don't know a lot about him, buy why do you say that? he's just one of the guys that popped in my head when i started thinking about what's next. He's done a good job at Baylor, but inside coaching circles he's probably considered dirtier than Sampson ever will be. His international connections are shady at best. While recruiting Kenneth Harris, Drew made a very large donation to a foundation run by Harris's AAU coach. Almost immediately after, Harris commits to Valpo. No one will touch that though, because his AAU coach is a reverend and it's a Christian group. Almost all coaches bend or break rules. However, Drew has hid behind international obscurity and religious righteousness to cheat. Please IU, stay away.

with out giving it much thought so far, i'm interested in looking at Scott Drew at Baylor. You do NOT want Scott Drew to follow Kelvin Sampson. Drew as a clean-up specialist is laughable.

Time and again? They hired Sampson, but that's not "time and again." That's simply once. This is the same school that fired Coach Knight and kept Mike Davis for six years -- I'd say they care very little about winning. I don't like Sampson and didn't want him hired, but the administration has made one mistake regarding rules. I've also very rarely, if ever, defended IU's administration. If they don't fire him, then it'll be two. Sampson does have a clause in his contract stating he can be fired for just cause if he violates any rules. However, as a public employee, he has a right to due process. (I'm a law student, not an attorney, so feel free to correct me anyone.) If Sampson is let go before June, IU would either open itself up to a lawsuit a la Jim O'Brien-Ohio State or they'd have to negotiate a buyout. I wanted Scott Skiles or Mike Montgomery last time. Still do.

No idea what thebiglead is, but I hope it's right. IU can redeem themselves somewhat in my view by firing him before the end of the season. Maybe this afternoon was too much to ask, but Friday isn't in my opinion. He has to go.

Ha ha, just what I was thinking. Weird, but I can't really complain about losing on a banked in 3-pointer. It was karma, and only six days later. Honestly, this might have been the best game IU has played all season. Of course, they're now 0-4 against the best teams they've played, but they are improving. Still, Sampson is garbage. Walk-on Kyle Taber nor fat-butt DeAndre Thomas can guard Marcus Landry. That should've been apparent before the game, much less during. I screamed about it the entire game. Landry only scored eight points, but six big ones down the stretch. Plus, staying in the zone during Wisconsin's barrage was ignorant. Though, this game was secondary to me. The impending sanctions are a much bigger concern, though hopefully they lead to Sampson's (and Greenspan's) dismissal. It should be immediate; it won't be, IU's administration is gutless. Edit: A post-season ban is no way deserved. Sanctions are deserved, but a post-season ban is for the gravest of improprieties. That isn't the case here.

The Big East is really good. I don't think anyone has ever said otherwise (though with annexing teams to get to 16 overall, it should be). I'd much prefer Dakich as interim to McCallum if it comes to that. Neither should be long-term options, though same goes for Davis. McCallum does come with his son, a point guard for Bloomington High School North that will likely be a top-30 or so prospect. I'd think after this, that IU wouldn't be worried about hiring a coach based on their ability to score a prospect. Dakich would be fine by me. Re: Big East, you touched on it, having so many teams in a BCS conference makes it tough not to have a bunch of top teams. It also makes it tough not to have a bunch of bottom teams as well. Counting up the # of top (whatever # fits your criteria) teams and going off of that is misleading. The Big East has some more terrible teams than any other conference too. Oh, I was by no means saying IU should hire McCallum to get his son. Not a chance. That was meant as an aside/joke; it's time for IU to get an ethical, competent coach. Another Bob Knight hire. The Big East is a difficult conference to rank. Of course, there are many top teams. It's huge, with many big-name programs. But it also has a lot more bad teams than others because of its size. I would imagine they'll do quite well in the tournament.

The Big East is really good. I don't think anyone has ever said otherwise (though with annexing teams to get to 16 overall, it should be). I'd much prefer Dakich as interim to McCallum if it comes to that. Neither should be long-term options, though same goes for Davis. McCallum does come with his son, a point guard for Bloomington High School North that will likely be a top-30 or so prospect.

That would be fine by me. I don't mind if IU sticks with him throughout the process and see where it leads, but if he's let go today I wouldn't mind that either. The question becomes who would coach the team though. If Sampson is fired, Meyer has to be fired as well. I hear there is an ex IU coach available :pig: Well, part of the reason said coach was hired in the first place was a cleanup job. IU football got in trouble in the 50's and 60's and then-President Herman B. Wells was so embarrassed he vowed never to let that happen again. IU was worried the basketball program under Lou Watson was headed for the same fate. Enter Coach Knight. But, yeah, :pig:.

That would be fine by me. I don't mind if IU sticks with him throughout the process and see where it leads, but if he's let go today I wouldn't mind that either. The question becomes who would coach the team though. If Sampson is fired, Meyer has to be fired as well. Neither Dan Dakich nor Ray McCallum was named and both have been head coaches before in college. Dakich, of course, even played at IU. So both would be solid options, all things considered. Sampson should be fired posthaste. If he's not, it just proves IU cares more about winning than ethics. Then, IU is clearly complicit in Sampson's actions (as of now, the NCAA report implies that they weren't, besides hiring him in the first place). Sampson must go. He never, ever should have been hired. IU's administration is awful.

Obviously, Sampson is willing to break the phone rules left and right. But that's not really the issue. The NCAA investigated this seriously, and, with the potential exception of the redacted name, implicated no current IU player. Therefore, this season is outside of the violations and the punishment can wait. Just because you hope that Sampson cheated to get Gordon doesn't make it so. In fact, unless he's the redacted name, the NCAA didn't find any cheating there.

Should this group of kids be penalized? They did absolutely nothing wrong. They gained no competitive advantage from this. The coach should be hit hardest because the allegations are most concerned about his coverup. The school should be hit second because they hired the coach, although the school was not complicit in any coverup, and in fact was the one who did a good job digging and finding out the truth. That should earn them points back, but they are still accountable for the actions of their employees. The kids shouldn't be affected. but who is the blacked-out player on the report? that could be someone on this year's team, i assume. I was wondering about that, seems weird. They included names of current college players and high school playeres. Why redact one name?