davell

Baez not in the lineup for Peoria. Although I'm glad they're cautious at least.

The question isn't if they will still suck or not. But rather if they will fill the roster with nothing but homegrown players. That's why I said "mostly"; if he's arguing the Cubs will have twenty-five homegrown players, which I don't think he is, he's obviously wrong. But I think he's right that additions to the roster will mainly be recycled crap and/or unproven youngsters. I don't doubt someone the likes of Ian Stewart, or even David DeJesus is brought in, but I'm expecting another punt. Management punted this year because they believed the team was not ready to contend; I suspect the same logic will be used next year. Hopefully that death cycle isn't interminable. The discussion started with somebody posting a lineup littered with guys already in the system all getting shots to sink or swim at once, including Bryan LaHair starting in LF. It was awful. People started commenting on how horrible the roster was and what a terrible decision it would be to do such a thing, and then kyle came in and kyled it up. Nobody claimed they'd be going after big time free agents left and right. Kyle had nothing to be arguing about because he didn't even disagree with what most people were saying (that the original concept of fielding a team of prospects was a horrible idea), but he found a way to disagree anyway. Good lord, you are trolling. Please, just once, actually bring a name to the plate when talking about how awful an idea LaHair is. You criticize, but NEVER bring an opinion to the table yourself, other than that the other person is wrong. And considering everyone thinks Soriano is gone, he's not an answer. The lineup included 3 players getting a shot at once. Castillo, Vitters, and Brett. Took that from Theo's quote about Boston fielding an entirely homegrown team. If I needed to say that they have to earn their shot, maybe I should have. Which does mean Brett needs to cut down the K rate, although I figure Castillo is ready and Vitters is doing pretty much what he can to at least be given a shot.

I don't discount us signing another high priced Cuban at all. No clue whether one arrives or not obviously. If Soriano is gone, the money we have to pay in the deal has to be paid in full, within 18 months. That amount, let's say 36 mill, being accounted all towards the 2013 payroll, could be announced by the FO and probably in a way that makes people understand as well.

How about any of these guys. Doubt it'd take longterm deals for any of them, although some probably require a 2-3 year commitment. Trying to find some guys that make us better next year, without spending big on a single player(which I just don't see happening) 2B Kelly Johnson- could give us some pop and would make Barney expendable in the right deal. 3B Placido Polanco- Old as hell, could give us backup for Vitters experiment, offers utility capability at least and would be cheap. LF Scott Hairston- bit of pop off the bench could be decent. LF Delmon Young- still just 27, worth a flyer? CF BJ Upton- Interesting, because he'd likely cost us our 2nd round pick.(not a huge deal, but likely to be offered arb at least)Probably having his worst season in a while. How high do you go? CF Angel Pagan- makes more sense if DeJesus were to be dealt, in my mind. May get longer deal from someone. RF Carlos Quentin- Too injury prone? Have to outbid everyone looking for power. SP Erik Bedard- Been healthy for a while, 2-3 year deal possible from someone wanting mid rotation guy. SP Gavin Floyd- Probably let go, solid buy low guy. SP Jeremy Guthrie- New Paul Maholm SP Jonathan Sanchez- Not sure if a 30 year old still has upside or not, but should be cheap at least.

Just curious, did anyone here ever play CSFBL?(Brett, don't answer)

Unbelievable. Again, why not actually CONTRIBUTE? Are you even CAPABLE? If you can't see that if LaHair can prove he's an .800 OPS guy in the majors, he'd have solid value as a pre-arb guy, then I have zero clue how to deal with your trolling. But, with us in our current position, there is no reason at all, for lack of options, to not at least give him the chance to see if he is that guy. He's been playing all year and after a hot start he's been awful for a long time. And that is with hiding him from LH pitching. He's had that chance. And it's just stupid to say he's the only player that could possibly have trade value. Again, who else? I mentioned Barney. Shark is probably as safe as Castro. Rizzo ain't getting dealt obviously. Soriano is as good as gone, but we aren't getting a big return obviously. To me, the only player left that has the potential to get us a solid return is Lahair. Sorry, if I needed to put the word "solid" in there.

They don't have to go through "one more year of suck" to get to that point, as TT has made abundantly clear. And I'm saying the FO thinks you're wrong. A year's worth of extremely high picks and IFA budget, plus the ability to see what you have with Brett, Castillo, Vitters, and whoever else may be acquired trumps the possibility to win 75-80 games, lose some prospects, lose draft and IFA positioning, and still not win a WS. Trade Garza and Dempster and you have more than enough pieces to work with. And you can't always "see what you have" because often that kills trade value. If you wait to do that with too many prospects you destroy your assets. It's a great point. Honestly. But, I think if you listen to Theo and Jed talk, they think by playing someone long enough and sticking with them, it helps them succeed. Granted, a year is the obvious max, in this type of experiment and if Brett ends the first hald with a .175/.225/.300 line, then you go ahead and pull the plug. But, if 2 of the 3 work out, isn't it worth it?

From what I can gather, Hickman is in the same boat. Much better pitching prospect, but wants to be given the chance to catch.

Unbelievable. Again, why not actually CONTRIBUTE? Are you even CAPABLE? If you can't see that if LaHair can prove he's an .800 OPS guy in the majors, he'd have solid value as a pre-arb guy, then I have zero clue how to deal with your trolling. But, with us in our current position, there is no reason at all, for lack of options, to not at least give him the chance to see if he is that guy.

They don't have to go through "one more year of suck" to get to that point, as TT has made abundantly clear. And I'm saying the FO thinks you're wrong. A year's worth of extremely high picks and IFA budget, plus the ability to see what you have with Brett, Castillo, Vitters, and whoever else may be acquired trumps the possibility to win 75-80 games, lose some prospects, lose draft and IFA positioning, and still not win a WS.

You don't think the Cubs will have anything they can trade worth as much as Marshall was last year? Are you still hung up on Sappelt? Not as much, but I'm regaining my confidence in Wood and I still like Torreyes a ton (bad BABIP luck notwithstanding, his skills have held up well this year). If Garza and Dempster are gone at the deadline, who is left that can be a part of that type of trade. Soto, I guess, if he has a strong second half? Only player that'd possibly have trade value after Garza and Dempster is LaHair if he hits. Which is why I had him on on our team next year, trying to build value. I'm not ready to call him Hoffpauir. And since KG, Badler and others agree with me, I'll take whatever from the guys here who think I'm crazy on this one. Barney loses value the closer he gets to arbitration, I guess I could see us moving him over the offseason. After that? No one. It's why I had us picking up Liriano and Madson, trying to turn them into a trade chip at the deadline.

It's not that they're going to build strictly through the system and never sign a FA. But, it helps being able to deal from a strength. I do think there is some video game rebuild going on here. Currently, we have Baez, Soler, Brett, Almora(hopefully), Szczur, Candelario, Lake, Vitters, Castillo, Hernandez, Torreyes, Amaya, Golden, Vogelbach, Acosta, Malave, Alcantara, all on the hitting side. Probably as strong or stronger than any other team in baseball from a positional standpoint. Tons of high upside guys there. Pitching? You've got McNutt, Wells(TJS), Maples, Rosario, maybe Whitenack and no one else I can even think about as more than a possible backend starter, other than Johnson, Blackburn, and Underwood, who we just drafted. And they're intent on adding more pitching, as they've rightfully stated. The vast majority of these guys are NOT ready for the majors within the next year. Which is good for us, because the higher up the ladder these guys go, the more value they have. Obviously, some will fall from their status currently, while others move up, but having extremely high picks next year and a big IFA budget is HUGE. It really will add a ton to the system, because most of it will still be right there, not in the majors as of yet. Plus, you've got the returns on Dempster, possibly Garza, and whoever else we may send packing. Could become a very nice group of youngsters we aren't even accounting for yet. You add a high pick and IFA budget to this in 2014 and we've got as good of a system as anyone in baseball, maybe the best by a wide margin, for all we know. I'm saying this because we're stocked with young position players, who have a much better attrition rate than pitchers do, and this isn't counting anything else we can add over the next 2 drafts and 3 IFA periods. At that point(before the 2014 draft and IFA), we'll be solid enough to be able to make deals and still have plenty left over in the pipeline. My guess is we'll have the best system in baseball entering 2014 and plenty of money to spend. Those two things together could make up a lot of ground for us and we shouldn't have as many holes to fill, because it's likely we'll have filled more than a few internally. One more year of suck, to get to that point is perfectly fine with me.

Look, if someone comes on the trade market next year, that makes more sense for us than Chase Headley, I'm sure we'll look into it and if it makes sense as a longterm move, we'll do it. But, we have zero clue who may or may not wind up on that market right now. Every year, there are some interesting names out there, some get dealt, some don't. If we can find a way to move Vitters or Brett and get a guy 2-3 years older and still under control for 3-4 years, we'll do it, if the guy is good. Those exact opportunities don't come around very often, so reading through the quotes of the FO, I presented what I think is realistic for us, as far as next year goes. But, I'm pretty sure there's even been quotes about how this fan base is more forgiving than Boston's was, so I'm prepared to watch something like I said unfold. With the caveat, that we definitely make moves aimed towards competing for the following season.

So then why the hell do you have Bryan LaHair as the starting LF? Well, we pretty much can guarantee Soriano isn't sticking around. And I've looked at FA for next year, we ain't signing Hamilton. Lee is old as hell and can't play the field anyway. Melky? Pay way up for him at this point? I can't see it. Upton? Sure, if he comes cheap enough, which I doubt. Maybe Delmon Young? Buy low guy anyway? Personally, I think we'd be better off with the LaHair/Gomes platoon I had. Personally I think it is asinine to pencil in LaHair as your starting LF on Opening Day, on purpose. Fine. So why not offer up someone else for discussion, instead of just criticizing my option?

So then why the hell do you have Bryan LaHair as the starting LF? Well, we pretty much can guarantee Soriano isn't sticking around. And I've looked at FA for next year, we ain't signing Hamilton. Lee is old as hell and can't play the field anyway. Melky? Pay way up for him at this point? I can't see it. Upton? Sure, if he comes cheap enough, which I doubt. Maybe Delmon Young? Buy low guy anyway? Personally, I think we'd be better off with the LaHair/Gomes platoon I had.

SSR; It won't let me quote again. But, I give up. I know I'm the guy who constantly says we're better off keeping Garza, but finding ways to deal him, more often than anyone else on the site. I caved. Trade him, if we get a top 50ish pitching prospect in the upper levels and a top 100ish pitching prospect(or a decent young major league starter already), with 2 other pieces we can put into our own top 30. Deal him.

No. No, you don't understand and acknowledge that not all prospects work out but also think that if you give them time to work on things you enhance your chances of succeeding with them. If you fill your roster with prospects you will suck, and if you stick with them you will continue to suck, plus waste the cheap years of the guys who do work out. Wait, so you're saying that if a prospect sucks his first time in the majors, then he's always going to suck. See, I can twist words too. Again, this is already being hinted at, choose to listen to our FO or not, I don't really care. But I think our season next year is going to be about developing the youngsters. And personally, I don't care if we don't "buy" surrounding pieces just because Castro is making the league minimum right now. Because we won't have any money on the books whatsoever and we'll find other cheap production elsewhere, once we start having to pay him. They want a pipeline of youngsters, not one. Yeah, Castro may wind up being the best, but we're going to get excellent cheap production out of way more than just him, over the next decade. The extra season coming, in this scenario, of extremely high picks and huge IFA budget more than makes up for not winning 80 games or so, next year, as some of you seem hell-bent on doing.

You can let Rizzo, Vitters and Jackson come up and struggle while still at least trying to put decent players at other positions. Why the hell is Bryan Lahair your starting LF? He's been awful for quite some time now. Maybe it's time to stop pretending he has a chance of being something. April .390/.471./.780 May .253/.343/.448 June .222/.276/.426 I don't see anything wrong with his May numbers myself. Yeah, he's had a very bad June. But his season should be looked at as a whole, not month by month. If he's worse in July and August than he's been in June? Sure, we need a LF. But, if he even puts up May numbers for the rest of the year, then we don't. Granted, he could be dealt at some point and we grab a LF in FA anyway. But, for now, with Soriano almost definitely on his way out, LaHair is our LF. Months themselves are arbitrary endpoints, so what happens if we do something very simple like have April extend thru May 3rd? April: .388/.468/.821 May: .241/.333/.380 June .222/.276/.426 LaHair is Hoffpauir incarnate, we need him on another roster as soon as possible, and if we can't unload him, he's a bench bat. So, in a season where we have extremely few assets to begin with, you wouldn't rather see if we can build some value in the guy, than casting him off for next to nothing right now? Goldstein, Badler, Law, all those guys think he can hit. If he's in a slump and comes out of it, he's worth a lot more. If he doesn't, what have we lost right now? This season is to see if he can build some value and we don't have better options right now anyway.

I think by next season, Rizzo has helped ease some of the concerns about him. To me, the only 3 you're breaking in are Brett, Vitters, and Castillo. Granted, I actually searched for a few "veterans" to provide some semblance of stability, but didn't really see any that made sense for us. Could definitely see us having a few more stopgap guys than what I have listed. As for the pitching, other than Turner, in this case, everyone else has shown an ability to be decent at the big league level. Added a 6th guy, thought about adding a 7th or 8th as well, but I figure we'll do that on minor league deals. My point though, is I think they want to suck again. And the 2 years of extremely high picks and huge IFA budgets are the reason. That alone should give us plenty of ammo to use for trades and finding an impact guy or two for us as well. And I think the Soriano contract, though through 2014 will be accounted for, by doing this, as paid in full with 2013 budgeted payroll. I just...I don't...what the hell kind of operation do you think they're running? They're not sorcerers; you can't rely on prospects that much. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I do think they're going to give Castillo, Vitters, and Brett a full chance next year. I guess I could see them throwing a little money at Upton, if he's undervalued? That's it though. I just don't see us spending big until we have more known pieces and I think they're doing everything they can to establish a framework that helps the youngsters to come up and succeed. Has a major market team ever done this? I doubt it. But, it's 3 rookies and 1 rookie in the rotation, in my scenario. I think that's what they're looking at. Again, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Because I totally acknowledge and understand not all prospects work out. On the other hand though, if you give them time to work on things, instead of sending them down or benching them, it's certainly got to enhance you're chances of succeeding with them.

You can let Rizzo, Vitters and Jackson come up and struggle while still at least trying to put decent players at other positions. Why the hell is Bryan Lahair your starting LF? He's been awful for quite some time now. Maybe it's time to stop pretending he has a chance of being something. April .390/.471./.780 May .253/.343/.448 June .222/.276/.426 I don't see anything wrong with his May numbers myself. Yeah, he's had a very bad June. But his season should be looked at as a whole, not month by month. If he's worse in July and August than he's been in June? Sure, we need a LF. But, if he even puts up May numbers for the rest of the year, then we don't. Granted, he could be dealt at some point and we grab a LF in FA anyway. But, for now, with Soriano almost definitely on his way out, LaHair is our LF.

I think by next season, Rizzo has helped ease some of the concerns about him. To me, the only 3 you're breaking in are Brett, Vitters, and Castillo. Granted, I actually searched for a few "veterans" to provide some semblance of stability, but didn't really see any that made sense for us. Could definitely see us having a few more stopgap guys than what I have listed. As for the pitching, other than Turner, in this case, everyone else has shown an ability to be decent at the big league level. Added a 6th guy, thought about adding a 7th or 8th as well, but I figure we'll do that on minor league deals. My point though, is I think they want to suck again. And the 2 years of extremely high picks and huge IFA budgets are the reason. That alone should give us plenty of ammo to use for trades and finding an impact guy or two for us as well. And I think the Soriano contract, though through 2014 will be accounted for, by doing this, as paid in full with 2013 budgeted payroll.

Thanks a bunch UK. I don't know why, but I was under the impression McNeil was the opposite actually. I thought he was very raw and needed a ton of work. Must have confused him with someone else.

Really? I see it coming. Hoyer and Theo have both said the youngsters are going to have to experience growing pains and they need to be given a longer leash, to see if they can overcome the obstacles. They've hinted at watching the them struggle and it'll be that much better once things start to click. Personally, I could see that team winning more games than this current one, but admittedly, it's out there to get a top 3 pick and huge IFA money for 2014. That team will lose 115 games and the fanbase will turn on the ownership, front office, Roast, en masse. It'd be a [expletive] disaster. although i'd love to see roast overwhelmed in a wrigley riot, there's no way that that team loses 100 games. 90, yes, 100, no. You can't say they will lose 90 but there's no way they'd lose 100. "They've hinted at watching the team struggle." What the hell are they doing right now? That's an absolutely abysmal joke of a roster. What I meant was watching the youngsters struggle. And they aren't even up yet, other than Rizzo at this point. I honestly doubt they thought we'd be THIS bad this year. As for that team I assembled, it could certainly lose 100 games. Not a definite though.

Really? I see it coming. Hoyer and Theo have both said the youngsters are going to have to experience growing pains and they need to be given a longer leash, to see if they can overcome the obstacles. They've hinted at watching the them struggle and it'll be that much better once things start to click. Personally, I could see that team winning more games than this current one, but admittedly, it's out there to get a top 3 pick and huge IFA money for 2014.

To clarify, I wouldn't do THAT deal either, just naming packages including a major league starter and close to majors starter as well. To get Garza, the Yanks would have to send Sanchez as well as another useful piece.