USSoccer

I don't think anyone is saying that. I'll say it again, it's not just one start. Miller's past shouldn't be ignored. Is his past that bad that he couldn't be counted on for a number 5 starter? He's talking about the completely destroyed shoulder, inability to avoid injury and subsequent loss of 10pmh on his fastball. If he's going to throw in the mid 80's with no movement, he should be in long relief so he can work with whoever on a new way to pitch, because what was apparent on Sunday was he was attempting to pitch as if he still had the velocity to overcome lack of movement and control. It's one start. Wow. You're right. Wade Miller existed in a vacuum prior to Sunday.

Every player that makes it to ST has some degree of talent. So without relying on how a player performs in a game environment, how do you propose that a team select players to make the ballclub? Do you base it on how fast a pitcher throws? How fast a runner runs? How well a player fields? Past performance? How far a player hits the ball? A player could have all the talent in the world and still be a horrible ballplayer. Is this serious?

I don't think anyone is saying that. I'll say it again, it's not just one start. Miller's past shouldn't be ignored. Is his past that bad that he couldn't be counted on for a number 5 starter? He's talking about the completely destroyed shoulder, inability to avoid injury and subsequent loss of 10pmh on his fastball. If he's going to throw in the mid 80's with no movement, he should be in long relief so he can work with whoever on a new way to pitch, because what was apparent on Sunday was he was attempting to pitch as if he still had the velocity to overcome lack of movement and control.

I agree, but then again look how the Twins developed Santana. Started him in the Pen, and gradually moved him into the staters role. I like Guzman in the long man right now. No reasons not to trust Lou and his coaches right now. Why would you keep the more talented pitcher in the role that keeps him from pitching, and have the inferioir pitcher affecting every 5th game? He may have talent, but he hasn't shown that he can get major league hitters out on a consistent basis. Perhaps Larry and Lou are working with him on putting hitters away more often. Doesn't he have to step it up and earn that number 5 spot? And what did Wade Miller do to "earn" the #5 spot? Doesn't he have to show he can get ML hitters out on a consistent basis? Wade Miller out-pitched him in ST. If Gooz was the better pitcher, he would've taking that number 5 spot. Basing your roster on spring training performance is a stupid way to construct your ballclub. Seriously, how hard is this to understand? It's not high school basketball tryouts. You go with talent. Spring training is for getting in shape for the season, not auditioning for starting roles. I cannot believe how this is a difficult concept for people to grasp. Not entirely true. For the kids like Guzman it's a chance to impress as Marshall did last year. Or Rocky Cherry, Theriot, and Cedeno did this year. That's the kind of mentality that has contributed the the Cubs being a suckfest for 99 years. Relying on the piddling sample size of spring training to build your roster.

I agree, but then again look how the Twins developed Santana. Started him in the Pen, and gradually moved him into the staters role. I like Guzman in the long man right now. No reasons not to trust Lou and his coaches right now. Why would you keep the more talented pitcher in the role that keeps him from pitching, and have the inferioir pitcher affecting every 5th game? He may have talent, but he hasn't shown that he can get major league hitters out on a consistent basis. Perhaps Larry and Lou are working with him on putting hitters away more often. Doesn't he have to step it up and earn that number 5 spot? And what did Wade Miller do to "earn" the #5 spot? Doesn't he have to show he can get ML hitters out on a consistent basis? Wade Miller out-pitched him in ST. If Gooz was the better pitcher, he would've taking that number 5 spot. Basing your roster on spring training performance is a stupid way to construct your ballclub. Seriously, how hard is this to understand? It's not high school basketball tryouts. You go with talent. Spring training is for getting in shape for the season, not auditioning for starting roles. I cannot believe how this is a difficult concept for people to grasp.

I agree, but then again look how the Twins developed Santana. Started him in the Pen, and gradually moved him into the staters role. I like Guzman in the long man right now. No reasons not to trust Lou and his coaches right now. Why would you keep the more talented pitcher in the role that keeps him from pitching, and have the inferioir pitcher affecting every 5th game? He may have talent, but he hasn't shown that he can get major league hitters out on a consistent basis. Perhaps Larry and Lou are working with him on putting hitters away more often. Doesn't he have to step it up and earn that number 5 spot? And what did Wade Miller do to "earn" the #5 spot? Doesn't he have to show he can get ML hitters out on a consistent basis?

I agree, but then again look how the Twins developed Santana. Started him in the Pen, and gradually moved him into the staters role. I like Guzman in the long man right now. No reasons not to trust Lou and his coaches right now. Why would you keep the more talented pitcher in the role that keeps him from pitching, and have the inferioir pitcher affecting every 5th game?

Yes, but no one said it can't be after a month or so of pitching out of the pen and then some spot starts to stretch out. This would allow a pitcher to adjust to the hitting at this level while working closely with the pitching coach. Then when it looks like he's got it, you begin to spot start him to see where he is and stretch out his arm. It's not like I'm suggesting leaving him in the pen for two or three seasons, but he's struggled on this level before and if he's going to develop, in my opinion, it's because someone is working with him and the best way to do that is out of the pen for now. As far as the fifth starter, I'm not in love with Miller. I'd like him to get 4-5 starts to see where he is, but if he's not there then release him or package him in a trade for what you can get. As long as we can get a decent fifth starter in return for him + not to high prospect, it would be good for the rotation, and it would allow for Guzman to be coached. -How is he going to get used to the hitting at the major league level when he's never pitching against it? -Why would you give a bad pitcher 4-5 starts? We're wasting games with that mentality.

who pitched like crap last year. If we don't sign Miller, then we're going into the season with our fifth starter being: a) Mark Prior, who can't stay healthy and when he was healthy last year, he got hammered... or... (b) Angel Guzman, who can't stay healthy and was really, really bad for the Cubs last year. I'd rather have more options, even if it turns out that Miller doesn't have what it takes to get big league hitters out. Agreed, if we don't want Miller in there, then like I said yesterday, it's best to go and find a trade for someone who can fill the spot well and let Guzman develop. Develop, pitching once a week out of the bullpen in a role that's better suited for a pitcher learning how to pitch with a different style...like Wade Miller should be doing.

And again, basing your roster on spring training outcomes and not talent and ability is a stupid way of constructing your baseball team. Even if Miller had pitched 6 innings of 3 run baseball Sunday, it wouldn't change the fact that he's not going to have sustained success locating his pitches like he still throws hard, and having no movement. It's not the outcome, but the actual act that's concerning. I'd rather have the guy who can miss bats and throw hard and deal with the growing pains knowing he's got much more ability and long term value, that middle about with the veteran security blanket pitching who's never going to be able to come close to his former ability, and who's unlikely to be better than league average. And you are assuming that Guzman will improve and stay healthy. You're doing the same with Miller. I'll take my chances with talent over feeling a false sense of security with a pitcher who used to be good.

Again, Guzman hasn't proven he can do this either. And all the stuff in the world doesn't get guys out... go ask Juan Cruz if you don't believe me. So if Guzman hasn't proven he can harness his stuff, and Miller hasn't proven he can adjust his pitching style post injury, why start Miller over the guy with more talent and upside? Miller's not going to be great. Guzman might.

If I had been the GM, he wouldn't have been on the team in this capacity. well okay, except he is on the team. Now, the Cubs didn't hand him the job - they had an open competition between Prior, Miller and Guzman. Miller pitched better than Prior and Guzman. Which begs the question, why have a competition for the 5th spot in the rotation if you're not going to give the winner a fair shot in the regular season? Eh? Guzman looked to have better stuff in ST than Miller & Prior. But good stuff is not the only measurement of a pitcher. Miller produced better results in the eyes of the Cubs. That's why he won the job. Relying on results in spring training games is a stupid and ignorant way of constructing a baseball team. No, open competition is the best way to hand out jobs. Everyone has an equal chance and you see who can step up and deliver. It was a simple competition facing the same type of competition. One person produced better results. And again, basing your roster on spring training outcomes and not talent and ability is a stupid way of constructing your baseball team. Even if Miller had pitched 6 innings of 3 run baseball Sunday, it wouldn't change the fact that he's not going to have sustained success locating his pitches like he still throws hard, and having no movement. It's not the outcome, but the actual act that's concerning. I'd rather have the guy who can miss bats and throw hard and deal with the growing pains knowing he's got much more ability and long term value, that middle about with the veteran security blanket pitching who's never going to be able to come close to his former ability, and who's unlikely to be better than league average.

If I had been the GM, he wouldn't have been on the team in this capacity. well okay, except he is on the team. Now, the Cubs didn't hand him the job - they had an open competition between Prior, Miller and Guzman. Miller pitched better than Prior and Guzman. Which begs the question, why have a competition for the 5th spot in the rotation if you're not going to give the winner a fair shot in the regular season? Eh? Guzman looked to have better stuff in ST than Miller & Prior. Miller: 3.64 ERA, 17.1 IP, 22 H, 4 BB, 16 K Guzman: 5.79 ERA, 13.2 IP, 18 H, 1 BB, 7 K They were both hittable, but Miller struck guys out at a better rate. "Stuff" is great but isn't worth a whole lot if you don't know how to locate it. And K rates are great against spring training lineups with guys in spring training mentalities, but if you can't miss bats and be able to throw hard to compensate for mistakes, you're going to get lit up like Miller did in Milwaukee.

If I had been the GM, he wouldn't have been on the team in this capacity. well okay, except he is on the team. Now, the Cubs didn't hand him the job - they had an open competition between Prior, Miller and Guzman. Miller pitched better than Prior and Guzman. Which begs the question, why have a competition for the 5th spot in the rotation if you're not going to give the winner a fair shot in the regular season? Eh? Guzman looked to have better stuff in ST than Miller & Prior. But good stuff is not the only measurement of a pitcher. Miller produced better results in the eyes of the Cubs. That's why he won the job. Relying on results in spring training games is a stupid and ignorant way of constructing a baseball team.

If I had been the GM, he wouldn't have been on the team in this capacity. well okay, except he is on the team. Now, the Cubs didn't hand him the job - they had an open competition between Prior, Miller and Guzman. Miller pitched better than Prior and Guzman. Which begs the question, why have a competition for the 5th spot in the rotation if you're not going to give the winner a fair shot in the regular season? Guzman was better than Miller, and Miller and Prior were about the same. Now, Prior can't go more than a few innings right now, fine, but Guzman was the better choice out of spring, and remains the best option for starting games.

If I had been the GM, he wouldn't have been on the team in this capacity. Then you'd have had your way and he wouldn't have been on the team. Do you remember that he stated clearly that if he didn't win the fifth starters spot that he didn't want to be here? Hendry also said that it would be "unfair" to Miller if he didn't start and would seek to trade or release him. The long relief spot is not an option for Miller. I could care less what Wade Miller wants, or what he feels is unfair. What's unfair is losing winnable games because your starting pitcher can't crack 90mph and throws the ball straight down the middle. If I were Jim Hendry, I would have exlained in no uncertain terms to Miller that since the Cubs spent money allowing Miller to rehab his shredded shoulder, they'll put him wherever they want, and if he threw a fit, I'd DFA him, since it would be no great loss by any stretch of the imagination.

If I had been the GM, he wouldn't have been on the team in this capacity.

He looked pretty bad in Milw., but I'll allow more than one start before passing judgment. How many starts should a reclamation project without velocity be allowed to make before alternatives are sought. We're not a good enough team to allow Wade Miller slack.

Good. Miller should be skipped all the way to the waiver wire.

Ernie Banks is making a comeback? WHER!? Banks: .274/.330/.500 (avg/obp/slg) Sammy: .274/.345/.537 ( " " ) Banks: 512 HR Sammy: 589 HR Sosa edges Banks..not by much..but he does. Sosa: Proven cheater Banks : Not Don't even compare the two. Ridiculous Are you referring to the corked bat that doesn't help a hitter in any way?

8 9

Just an irritating game.

I'm pretty sure I've seen this game a few dozen times in the past 3 seasons.

Nice AB, Aramis.

And you, similarly, are not fair to our Cubs players. Think so? This is 2 games Howry has coughed up. No matter the ump, Adam Everett shouldn't hit home runs on you. ERA+ of 166, 146 and 146 the last three years. I wish the rest of our bullpen "sucked" that badly. COMPUTERS DON"T PLAY BASEBALL MY KNEE JERK REACTIONS IN GAME THREADS DO. :D