Tracer Bullet

in 2007, Nick Saban in his first year at Alabama lost to Louisiana Monroe. You're trying to tell me that they were the best team in CFB just 2 years later? You must be smoking something. I'm not the one comparing Nick Saban to Brian Kelly, so I think I'm clean. yeah, your logic has been perfectly sound so far.

in 2007, Nick Saban in his first year at Alabama lost to Louisiana Monroe. You're trying to tell me that they were the best team in CFB just 2 years later? You must be smoking something. Not to play negative nancy, but Nick Saban already had a national championship on his resume by the time that loss happened and it was completely reasonable to assume he was going to quickly get Bama into contention. Brian Kelly's greatest accomplishment so far is going 12-0 in the Big East, which might as well be the MWC at this point. no one is saying Kelly has to or will win a title in 2 years.

in 2007, Nick Saban in his first year at Alabama lost to Louisiana Monroe. You're trying to tell me that they were the best team in CFB just 2 years later? You must be smoking something.

Ah, we're still on the 'you should be forced to accept a bowl bid without a head coach or offensive coordinator and with your two best players already polishing up their NFL resumes whether it makes any sense whatsoever to do so' kick. If anyone's read the book "Death to the BCS" it should be blatantly obvious why accepting a minor bowl bid at 6-6 is stupid for anyone, especially so without a coach. Those extra practices are invaluable to younger players. Maybe that's why you suck this season. extra practices with no HC, no OC, and 2 DCs whose systems could not be more different (oh, and I believe the WR coach/recruiting coordinator took a HC job at another school in December as well). those are somehow helpful? if only there was an unlimited amount of practice time in cfb.

maybe so maybe not

i have sigs off. I totally forgot about that. It's from a letter exchange b/t an old ND blog and Michigan blog. Obviously referencing Princess Bride.

now i'm on board with that. i wonder if derwood has an e-pitchfork i can borrow.

let's separate out the pieces b/c it seems like you're confused. the reason i say there won't be a civil suit is ND will likely pay the family a lot of money. I'm fairly certain this kid signed a waiver and if ND wanted to, they could defend a law suit. Heck, they might even have a really good chance of winning, depending on the factors and exactly what the waiver says. But that's not wise business policy and I don't think they'll do it. I think they'll move quickly to settle with the family quietly. Unless something really bad happened, like Coach Kelly threatened to punch the kid if he didn't go up in the lift, I doubt the family wants this tragedy to be a national news item. So that's why I don't think there will be a civil case. I've said nothing about a criminal action nor even implied anything. I've said I think we should wait until the investigation concludes before vilifying ND or anyone else. The investigation will tell us whether there will be a criminal action. I take issue with reading this story and grabbing your e-pitchforks b/c you don't know everything that happened and you look kind of dumb. My issue with was the "drop the hammer" language, nothing more. [not you as in you, sponge, you in the collective sense]

i'm not sure if something criminal happened or not. fairly sure that's why they have investigations. i'm amazed you can make that determination. oh wait, you're just speculating. nm Sounds like you're just as certain that ND isn't guilty of criminal negligence when you say that it's just meaningless message board banter to characterize it that way. where did I say it was meaningless banter to characterize anything? I said it was message board fist pounding to want the "hammer dropped" (at least in part b/c no one knows what really happened yet). The hammer talk isn't very clear but you have adopted the message board apologist stance. It seems to me very likely that something criminal happened. If they practiced indoors because of dangerous conditions then went outside the next day under same conditions and sent a kid into a structure that is not supposed to be used under those conditions it seems pretty clear to me that something criminal happened. message board apologist? how about "let's see what happens before we tear people down in a tragedy." We can say whatever we want about dropping hammers on ND, but the reality is there is an individual or individuals who were closest to this kid (in terms of his employment). They may have some liability for him being up there. But even if they don't, I guarantee they're living with incredible guilt right now. So maybe, on the off chance that they didn't do anything wrong, we should wait a few hours for the investigation before villifying them. as for your criminal negligence logic - it's air tight, I'm sure. But I'll be shocked if this kid didn't sign a pretty solid waiver in ND's favor (if you look around online, you can find the one that applies and it says pretty much what you'd want it to say if you were ND - assuming the kid got the training that the policy requires). And if the equipment says right on it the wind restrictions and no one forced him to go up there (at least threatening him with his job - which isn't paid, btw - or more), then how liable is the kid himself? (he tweeted that he was terrified up there about 30 minutes before the collapse - why didn't he come down or tell his boss or someone that it wasn't safe?) Here's the thing about tragedies. You can either fault the organization b/c it's easy and it makes you feel better or you can look at something critically and possibly lay some blame at the feet of the victim. That sucks and it's really hard, but sometimes that's the way these things play out. So I don't know what OSHA will conclude but this isn't as easy as "oh, they practiced inside yesterday and outside today, so they're criminally negligent." There's a hell of a lot more to it than that.

i'm not sure if something criminal happened or not. fairly sure that's why they have investigations. i'm amazed you can make that determination. oh wait, you're just speculating. nm Sounds like you're just as certain that ND isn't guilty of criminal negligence when you say that it's just meaningless message board banter to characterize it that way. where did I say it was meaningless banter to characterize anything? I said it was message board fist pounding to want the "hammer dropped" (at least in part b/c no one knows what really happened yet).

i'm not sure if something criminal happened or not. fairly sure that's why they have investigations. i'm amazed you can make that determination. oh wait, you're just speculating. nm

that's just dumb Its really no different than a construction accident where a company is in negligence to code. I don't know what he means by drop the hammer but the university will be held liable for something. there's almost 0 chance that they don't compensate the family greatly regardless of whether they're ever legally found to be at fault (and I doubt any civil suit will ever be filed). but wanting a hammer dropped on ND for criminal negligence is just meaningless message board fist pounding. If that happens there won't be a civil suit as that would be written into the settlement. The end result would be the same, lots of money going to the family. well obviously, which is why I said I don't think a civil suit will be filed. the point (from ND's perspective) isn't the money going to the family, it's the story. neither the family nor the university benefit from a law suit and I can't imagine ND is dumb enough to drag this out at all.

that's just dumb Its really no different than a construction accident where a company is in negligence to code. I don't know what he means by drop the hammer but the university will be held liable for something. there's almost 0 chance that they don't compensate the family greatly regardless of whether they're ever legally found to be at fault (and I doubt any civil suit will ever be filed). but wanting a hammer dropped on ND for criminal negligence is just meaningless message board fist pounding.

that's just dumb

What? I'd think that would be a good time to tell the kids to hit the showers. Kelly was with the kid until he was in the ambulance. Sounds like they ushered the team back inside to keep them out of the emergency crew's way once they got there and maybe the assistants kept them practicing while they attended to the kid outside. Kelly ended practice when he got back inside.

Tulsa? Is it bowl season already?

if Mizzou had a schedule like that, we wouldn't bother you guys so much about whining for respect.

Should I post MSU's schedules when they come out? if you feel like it. i only posted it b/c it was discussed a week or so ago and someone asked about 7-4-1. we can go back to talking about Rose Bowl tiebreakers from over a decade ago now.

ND finalized its 2011 and 2012 schedules. 7-4-1 is officially dead. That 2012 slate is badass. 2011 Sept. 3 SOUTH FLORIDA Sept. 10 at Michigan Sept. 17 MICHIGAN STATE Sept. 24 at Pittsburgh Oct. 1 at Purdue Oct. 8 AIR FORCE Oct. 15 Open Date Oct. 22 USC Oct. 29 NAVY Nov. 5 at Wake Forest Nov. 12 MARYLAND (Fed-Ex Field, Washington D.C.) Nov. 19 BOSTON COLLEGE Nov. 26 at Stanford 2012 Sept. 1 Navy (Dublin, Ireland) Sept. 8 PURDUE Sept. 15 at Michigan State Sept. 22 MICHIGAN Sept. 29 Open Date Oct. 6 MIAMI (Soldier Field, Chicago) Oct. 13 STANFORD Oct. 20 BYU Oct. 27 at Oklahoma Nov. 3 PITTSBURGH Nov. 10 at Boston College Nov. 17 WAKE FOREST Nov. 24 at USC

why is saragin the only ranking that matters? Illinois is not the 30th best team in the country and SDSt isn't 40th. They're not the only ranking that matters: Colley: Illinois 43rd, San Diego State 44th Wolfe: Illinois 38th, San Diego State 40th Massey: Illinois 39th, San Diego State 42nd Anderson/Hester: Illinois 39th, San Diego State 45th And the computer ranking that functions more like a poll where preseason rankings matter a bunch (Florida is still 8 spots ahead of Missouri in this ranking!) Illinois 44th, San Diego State 81st The point isn't to say that Illinois is exactly 30th or San Diego State is exactly 40th. The other computer rankings show those two teams as very close around in the 40-45 range. The point is that based on the results this year it is debatable on if Missouri or Alabama's schedule has been harder. Of the 3 computers which post SOS numbers, Colley has Missouri's schedule as stronger, Anderson/Hester has Alabama's as stronger, and Sagarin has it at a dead heat. The schedules are certainly close enough that Missouri as an undefeated team should definitely be ahead of 1 loss Alabama at this point even before the Oklahoma game, and they probably should be ahead of Alabama even if Missouri loses this week and Alabama wins (since Missouri's schedule will certainly be harder than Alabama's this week after Missouri plays Oklahoma and Alabama plays Tennessee). The only way they probably shouldn't be ahead is if they absolutely get embarrassed. But a close loss probably still gives them a better resume than Alabama. I don't agree. Teams that haven't been really good lately aren't going to get the nod over proven teams, esp the defending national champion. That's even more true when the best win the other team has is Illinois. The burden is on Missouri to establish that they're actually good. Beating a bunch of crappy teams and Illinois isn't going to convince a lot of people. Of course that's the way it is. That's also the lazy way out. The burden should be just as much on Alabama as it is on Missouri. It's not even like Alabama has the same team back. Half their starters from last year are gone. I would agree with you that the perceived difficulty is harder for the teams on Alabama's schedule. That doesn't make it reality though. It's close enough that the defending national champion that beat a team that's been really good lately gets the nod over the recently average and historically non-existent team that's played no one of any significance.

why is saragin the only ranking that matters? Illinois is not the 30th best team in the country and SDSt isn't 40th. They're not the only ranking that matters: Colley: Illinois 43rd, San Diego State 44th Wolfe: Illinois 38th, San Diego State 40th Massey: Illinois 39th, San Diego State 42nd Anderson/Hester: Illinois 39th, San Diego State 45th And the computer ranking that functions more like a poll where preseason rankings matter a bunch (Florida is still 8 spots ahead of Missouri in this ranking!) Illinois 44th, San Diego State 81st The point isn't to say that Illinois is exactly 30th or San Diego State is exactly 40th. The other computer rankings show those two teams as very close around in the 40-45 range. The point is that based on the results this year it is debatable on if Missouri or Alabama's schedule has been harder. Of the 3 computers which post SOS numbers, Colley has Missouri's schedule as stronger, Anderson/Hester has Alabama's as stronger, and Sagarin has it at a dead heat. The schedules are certainly close enough that Missouri as an undefeated team should definitely be ahead of 1 loss Alabama at this point even before the Oklahoma game, and they probably should be ahead of Alabama even if Missouri loses this week and Alabama wins (since Missouri's schedule will certainly be harder than Alabama's this week after Missouri plays Oklahoma and Alabama plays Tennessee). The only way they probably shouldn't be ahead is if they absolutely get embarrassed. But a close loss probably still gives them a better resume than Alabama. I don't agree. Teams that haven't been really good lately aren't going to get the nod over proven teams, esp the defending national champion. That's even more true when the best win the other team has is Illinois. The burden is on Missouri to establish that they're actually good. Beating a bunch of crappy teams and Illinois isn't going to convince a lot of people.

why is saragin the only ranking that matters? Illinois is not the 30th best team in the country and SDSt isn't 40th.

as many others have pointed out, only Florida and maybe PSU can really claim to "not usually lose 3 or more games in a season" recently. 3 losses has been the norm or a really good season for most of those teams recently.

That's not what I was getting at. Last month everyone was talking about the gauntlet that Alabama would have to go through. Now it comes out that it was a bunch of teams that are back end of the Top 25, if that. They played PSU at #18, Arkansas at #10, Florida at #7, and South Carolina at 19. Now those teams are NR (no votes), 21, NR (no votes), and 19/20. Not enough people stop to reconsider that. No doubt those teams were overrated. But all NR (no votes) teams aren't created equal. Would you rather play PSU, Arkansas, Florida and South Carolina or McNeese St, Miami OH, and SDSt? Those unranked teams on Bama's schedule are closer to the the top 25 than the teams on Missouri's schedule. Comparing the two by the Sagarin ELO chess ratings: Alabama's schedule: South Carolina-29th Arkansas-31st Florida-47th Penn State-60th Mississippi-76th San Jose State-121st Duke-166th Missouri's schedule: Illinois-30th San Diego State-40th Colorado-45th Texas A&M-51st Miami-Ohio-78th McNeese State-131st Maybe the teams on Alabama's schedule are closer to the top 25 but that's mostly on reputation. Florida and Penn State have done nothing this year. Arkansas has had one close win against Texas A&M and their next best win was against a bad Georgia team. South Carolina has a win against Alabama and their next best win is against Southern Miss. And Alabama has played 3 really poor teams so far while Missouri has only played 2. How do we know Missouri has only played 2 really poor teams? Illinois has only beaten PSU (who you acknowledge has done nothing) and Northern and Southern Illinois. They've lost to every decent team they've played. Same for Texas A&M.

That's not what I was getting at. Last month everyone was talking about the gauntlet that Alabama would have to go through. Now it comes out that it was a bunch of teams that are back end of the Top 25, if that. They played PSU at #18, Arkansas at #10, Florida at #7, and South Carolina at 19. Now those teams are NR (no votes), 21, NR (no votes), and 19/20. Not enough people stop to reconsider that. No doubt those teams were overrated. But all NR (no votes) teams aren't created equal. Would you rather play PSU, Arkansas, Florida and South Carolina or McNeese St, Miami OH, and SDSt? Those unranked teams on Bama's schedule are closer to the the top 25 than the teams on Missouri's schedule.