The Voice of Reason

I recall similar logic being used by the Cubs when they traded Bill Madlock after a "career year" to the Giants for an over-the hill Bobby Murcer. The problem was Madlock was just hitting his stride and had several more "career years" with the Giants. It was the Pirates and I cried like a baby when he was traded, but then again I was only 5. He was my favorite Cub. I'll cut you some slack since you were only 5. In 1977 the Cubs traded Madlock to the Giants (after he won the batting title). The Giants later traded him to the Pirates. Madlock's career stats - .305. BA, .365 OBP, .807 OPS. I guess back then, the Cubs didn't value OBP as much as they do now. :wink:

I recall similar logic being used by the Cubs when they traded Bill Madlock after a "career year" to the Giants for an over-the hill Bobby Murcer. The problem was Madlock was just hitting his stride and had several more "career years" with the Giants. Get D. Lee some base runners on in front of him and adequate protection behind him and I see some MVPs in his future as well as several more gold gloves. I wouldn't trade him for anything less than the entire Tampa Bay Devil Rays franchise.

I don't think he'd be content backing up D. Lee.

Can't one of you computer studs self-impose a picture of Edmonds face over Ozzie's son's?

Could not have said it better. If it's possible to spend $100 million and still be cheap the Tribco has done it. Making the signing of Carlos Beltran contingent upon the trading of Sammy Sosa when you have the resources the Trib does is cheap and small-time thinking. But when your only goal is to spend just enough money to entice people to come out to the ballpark this is the kind of team you get. Yeah and they could have gotten JD DRew too, or Jason Giambi or any other number of players that were a bust. If the Cubs had Carlos a lot of people would be howling for his head right now saying how much of a bust he was compared to the salary he was taking. Valid points but if the Cubs had invested in Beltran, Tejada and another starter (allowing Dempster to be in the bullpen all year), I think they would have beaten out Houston for the wild card this year and be set up pretty good for next year when Wood returns (fingers crossed) healthy. Spending money doesn't guarantee anything but it increases your odds. Case in point - the Yankees. Bad pitcher investments this year but still made the playoffs. Since 1909, the Yankees have won 26 World Championships and countless pennants. The Cubs have one measely pennant. The corrrelation is that historically the Yankees had combined spending money with their share of good personnel decisions. The Cubs have not. :cry:

Were the White Sox just lucky as the attached article and the stat geeks at Baseball Prospectus are implying or is sabermetrics (gasp) overrated? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9833787/

The Cubs payroll is a long way from the Red Sox's and the Yankees and is projected to be the near equivalent of the Cardinals (from a dinkly little town like St. Louis) in 2006. Trib paid $20 million for the Cubs and it's now (20+years later) projected to be worth $500 - $600 million. It's time to put some of that capital gain (not just revenue) back into the product or time for the Tribune conglomerate to cash in their goldmine of an investment. Being competitive in no longer good enough. Don't you understand that there is no capital gain until you sell the asset ?? Corporations raise capital all the time by using the unrealized gains from appreciated assets as collateral for various funding arrangements. That's why CFOs are so well paid. To oversimplyfy, it's like when homowners take out home equity loans on their greatly apppreciated homes. They don't sell the asset. Of course, if the Trib wanted to take their $580 milllion dollar profit and cashout I think that could be a positive for the Cubs. Finally, I don't put a lot of stock in the reliability of the Tribune's "net income" numbers. For example, they list broadcast revenue that is less than the White Sox do (which can't be true) and don't list for all the intangible revenue the Cubs bring in. Bottom line - The Tribune conglomerate could have afforded Tejada (instead of Nefi/Nomar) and Beltran (instead of Patterson) and other improvements to the team which ultimately would have paid "dividends" but they chose not to.

The Cubs payroll is a long way from the Red Sox's and the Yankees and is projected to be the near equivalent of the Cardinals (from a dinkly little town like St. Louis) in 2006. Trib paid $20 million for the Cubs and it's now (20+years later) projected to be worth $500 - $600 million. It's time to put some of that capital gain (not just revenue) back into the product or time for the Tribune conglomerate to cash in their goldmine of an investment. Being competitive in no longer good enough.

So that's what Vaball and K-Town look like.

Two comments: 1. Anyone else ever notice that when the Tribune Company/Cub senior executives talk about their "competitive" payroll it's strictly on a current fiscal year revenue vs expense basis? They never mention that their investment in the Cubs has increased almost 30 fold ($20.5 mill. to $550 mill.) in 24 years or all the other ancillliary revenue the Cubs bring in. Wouldn't it be nice if they put some of that money back into the product? 2. I can't believe the Tribune company's stake in the food network is worth more than the Cubs.

ManEatingTarp - I thought you sincerely liked us Cubs fans? Even before the Astro trolls invaded your site :? http://forums.stltoday.com/viewtopic.php?t=305175

This is ridiculous. Our chances of signing Giles are I'd say, roughly, about a bazillion times better than our chances of landing ARod. Let's assume the Yankees are stupider than we think they are, and trade ARod because "he's not a true Yankee." What would we offer that they would accept in a trade? Aramis, Prior, and Pie? The situation is similar, though not nearly as extreme, with Manny. Floyd is more realistic. But it's worth pointing out that all we have to give up to get Giles is money. Which we have a lot of. Yes, it's true that he might sign for less to play somewhere else, but I'm sure he realizes that this team is (for all of our griping) only a few steps away from being big time contenders. And he would be one of those steps. Couple of problems... Giles has a choice over where he goes. Sure Manny, Arod and Floyd can block a trade, but I doubt any of them would. As for merely "giving up money," Floyd and Arod are probably alot more attractive to the Trib. Arod has a lot more marketing potential, and Floyd has a Trib friendly 1 year deal. Manny's deal probably will have less years remaining than Giles. A couple of Cards fans are telling me that the Red Birds will be making a big push for Giles (maybe their supposed "interest" in Jones is just a smokescreen). If the Cubs were smart (I realize the contradiction in terms there), they would do what it takes to get Giles, thereby killing two birds (one red :D ) with one stone, i.e., filling a need and keeping a good player away from their bitter rival. http://forums.stltoday.com/viewtopic.php?t=304719&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

White Sox seem to believe they have a great offense "with power up and down the lineup". Regarding #2, if you recall, the 1982 and 1985 series were played between very small cities (Milwaukee and St. Louis) and (KC and St. Louis). National ratings were not good.

I think the real reason that players like to play in St. Louis is because the stadium is close to the Bowling Hall of Fame.

Not saying Jones is that sensational or that he should be a #1 priority but there's not any guarantee that Giles or any other names floated on this board are dying to come to the Cubs. Point = Cubs fans need to be flexible and realistic. Jacque Jones SPLIT OBP SLG OPS Season 319 .438 .757 Career .327 .455 .792 Why does flexible and realistic = accept garbage? Jones improves this team in exactly zero ways. This team needs improvement. This OF is desperate for production. Jones is not productive. He's past his prime, and his prime wasn't any good. Jones would be a terrible option for this team, unless they end up with ARod at short and keep Ramirez, Walker and Lee on the IF. At 35, is it possible that Giles is past his prime? Say he doesn't want to leave SD and his family for the Cubs, who do you propose plays RF for the Cubs in 2006? Burnitz?

Not saying Jones is that sensational or that he should be a #1 priority but there's not any guarantee that Giles or any other names floated on this board are dying to come to the Cubs. Point = Cubs fans need to be flexible and realistic. Jacque Jones SPLIT OBP SLG OPS Season 319 .438 .757 Career .327 .455 .792

I could see Nomar going "home." I say let him. Although given their experience with JD Drew, would the Dodgers want to invest in another guy with a history of injuries? http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/scorecard/10/19/truth.rumors.mlb/index.html Also, why not frontrun the Cardinals on Jacque Jones? Let them have Burnitz (If only Jocketty was that stupid). :lol:

For a FULL Season I would like to see: Kerry Wood, Mark Prior, Nomar and Aramis Ramirez.

Not sure the Cubs should be considering adding a pitcher with a history of arm and shoulder problems to their fragile starting rotation but evidently the Indians think he is worth keeping. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/baseball/mlb/10/04/millwood.indians.ap/index.html

Only if they make it to the World Series and are playing the Cardinals.

:? :?: Your original post on the matter indicated that YOU think that Cardinal fans are "different". I'm just saying that I wouldn't expect you to understand Cardinal fans reacting to McGwire, because you're not a Cardinal fan, and you've never experienced one of "your guys" accomplishing a feat like that. 512 career home runs and two consecutive MVPs (all in a Cubs uniform) by Ernie Banks is a much greater feat than one steroid-induced 70 home run season by McGwire.

The players think it's the Cardinal fans (according to a Sporting News survey a couple of years ago). The Cardinals got like 50% of the player votes. 2nd place wasn't even that close. Red Sox fans are truly serious about their team, though. Maybe Cardinal fans are just the "friendliest", or something. I'm not sure. Or maybe just the most blindly loyal

Any answer I give you will simply open the door for you to call me a foolish blind homer. No need to state the obvious.

Since you used bold print, I'm convinced that you must be right. :roll: Nice comeback. :P

Yeah, he'll be cheap. You can DH him. Make sure you have a short LF porch. Get your 600 and retire with dignity, Sammy. As soon as you hit it, tip your cap and call it a career. Dignity went flying out the window about the same time time the cork went flying out of Sammy's bat.