BigbadB

A few fans? Cub fans have been suffering since 1908. Many have died without ever knowing the feeling of winning it all, unless they are Bear fans like me. If he doesn't care, then it's high time to replace him with someone who does. A 100m payroll even tells me that The Trib cares about winning.

That's just plain wrong. You don't try and correct bad decisions by compounding them with more bad decisions. What? You think if we close our eyes and hope hard enough Hendry and Baker will go away? And what bad decision are we talking about? Giles isn't coming here, he never was. Sure, Brian hasn't dictated that directly to Moses to be presented to us as hard evidence on stone tablets, but the writings are on the wall. This has nothing to do with accepting mediocrity. He either wants to stay with his family or win now. It is circumstantial evidece that states this, but there is a mountain of it. What do you suggest, that Hendry put everything else aside and go full bore after Giles? I think a more sorry epitaph to the offseason would be one that tells of how Hendry focused to much on one player and missed other opportunities. Hendry wouldn't need to dedicate the entire offseason to signing Giles. All they would have had to do is court him like you are supposed to. Call him and say "Brian, you are the guy we've targeted as the guy we want on this club. If you come to Chicago, we'll give you 3 years at 14m a year to be our RF." When Giles then says, I'm not interested, Hendry can announce to the world he tried, but Giles has no interest in the Cubs and move on. Hendry has been salivating over Furcal all offseason, and he's no closer to being signed than Giles. Funny, Atlanta gave their top dollar for Furcal and it was after that he announced to the world (or to Hendry since the Cubs seem to be the only other team falling all over themselves for Furcal) that it would take 50m to get him. Atlanta wants him back and they can't go over 8m a year. Apparently, he wouldn't mind going back. If it takes 50m to convince him to not to back to Atlanta, I say go back to Atlanta, we have internal options that might be better. If not, we'll trade for one who is. There is no secret that the Cubs want Furcal. Why is the Giles thing a secret? It gives me the appearance that Hendry wants Furcal and not Giles. I think that's not thinking clearly. How do we know thaere hasn't been preliminary discussion with Giles' agent, and there didn't seem to be enough interest to justify any further effort? And if there wasn't, what does arguing here about it accomplish? For whatever reason, Hendry doesn't seem to be inclined to pursue Giles. If he isn't going after him, he isn't going after him. It may be because Giles doesn't want to come to the Cubs, or it may be because Hendry doesn't want him, or it may because of Giles demands. Regardless, the end result will likely be the same. Hendry has been incompetant recently, so none of this should be a revelation. There are other fish in the sea, and we can hope he is going after them. Obviously, we argue about this stuff because it's a message board. I'm not into the "I told you so" game that can be played when not signing Giles costs us another pennant next year. I just want to win. Sign him and move on the next hurdle. You are right. We don't know. But, we know that Hendry told Nomar don't bother, we are going a different route. We know that Walker will be on the first train out of town when the right trade comes Hendry's way. We know how badly Hendry wants Furcal. We know he is interested in Wilkerson, Bradley, Pierre and the guy Texas. We don't know what his feelings are on Giles. I'd like to know why. Until I know, I'll probably continue venting my frustration here. My apologies if it offends you.

And Furcal had a good year in his contract year. So did Adrian Beltre last year. So did Beltran last year. That list goes on and on. Giles is productive every year. Are you skipping out on compiling a list of players that compare to Giles for much less than what Giles would make that would be available for the Cubs? Compare Julio Lugo to Furcal. Look at their stats. Same guy. Lugo will make just under 5m this year and Furcal will make 10m plus for the next several years. The Cubs have so much trade commodity it's not even funny. I'm not worried about it costing players for someone in trade. At least plenty of trade commodity to land a Lugo or a Wilkerson or someone of the like.

Lofton in decline can still put up an OBP as good or better than Furcal. And he wouldn't cost anymore than 1/5th of what Furcal would cost. It's putting all your eggs in one basket to blow a tremendous amount of your available offseason money on a SS when you already have one. You no longer have any money to spend on a decent RF option.

That's just plain wrong. You don't try and correct bad decisions by compounding them with more bad decisions. What? You think if we close our eyes and hope hard enough Hendry and Baker will go away? And what bad decision are we talking about? Giles isn't coming here, he never was. Sure, Brian hasn't dictated that directly to Moses to be presented to us as hard evidence on stone tablets, but the writings are on the wall. This has nothing to do with accepting mediocrity. He either wants to stay with his family or win now. It is circumstantial evidece that states this, but there is a mountain of it. What do you suggest, that Hendry put everything else aside and go full bore after Giles? I think a more sorry epitaph to the offseason would be one that tells of how Hendry focused to much on one player and missed other opportunities. Hendry wouldn't need to dedicate the entire offseason to signing Giles. All they would have had to do is court him like you are supposed to. Call him and say "Brian, you are the guy we've targeted as the guy we want on this club. If you come to Chicago, we'll give you 3 years at 14m a year to be our RF." When Giles then says, I'm not interested, Hendry can announce to the world he tried, but Giles has no interest in the Cubs and move on. Hendry has been salivating over Furcal all offseason, and he's no closer to being signed than Giles. Funny, Atlanta gave their top dollar for Furcal and it was after that he announced to the world (or to Hendry since the Cubs seem to be the only other team falling all over themselves for Furcal) that it would take 50m to get him. Atlanta wants him back and they can't go over 8m a year. Apparently, he wouldn't mind going back. If it takes 50m to convince him to not to back to Atlanta, I say go back to Atlanta, we have internal options that might be better. If not, we'll trade for one who is. There is no secret that the Cubs want Furcal. Why is the Giles thing a secret? It gives me the appearance that Hendry wants Furcal and not Giles. I think that's not thinking clearly.

For all the talk about the specific oddity of Lee having so few opportunities, wasn't there a similar stat where Burnitz had the most opportunities but came through the fewest times? OBP all around is much more of a problem than OBP in the leadoff spot. Order isn't that important. What matters is overall production. The fact that the Cubs are so intent on narrowing their focus to one spot is disturbing, while the apparant willingness of a large segment of the media and fan base to applaud that focus is just bewildering. This was not a team that was a leadoff hitter away from championship. They had candidates for the spot, but chose not to use them. I refuse to justify inefficient personel moves with the "save Dusty from himself" theory. It's Jim's own fault that Dusty is here, he can't get a free pass for bad moves just because they were made in an effort to stop Dusty from screwing up too much. That is called throwing good money after bad, and it's a piss-poor management philosophy. First off, I have said the entire lineup needs to be addressed as far as OBP is concerned. Two or three times now. Having said that, not all the needs are equal. I am sorry Goony, but when you have guys like Perez and Patterson leading things off and two guys with .900+ OPS following them and you aren't scoring runs, it doesn't take a slide rule to figure out what is wrong. Lee had a OBS of 1.080, Ramirez .926, Walker .829, Barrett .824, which is decent combination of pop and OBP for the heart of the order. Burnitz's .322 OBP hurts for sure, but Neifi's .298, Hairston's .336 and Corey's .254 rotating around the top was the killer. Now adding OBP to RF and CF should be a priority, but putting people in the lineup that will get on base and Dusty will actually bat at the top is most important. I would put it this way: the need for OBP at the top is dire, the need for OBP lower in the lineup is serious. Hopefull both will be addressed, and I think they will. But if you had to choose one, OBP at the top should be it. Now I am not trying to defend Baker or Hendry, but with them in place, you have to take their stupidity into account. You can't assume players will be used in useful or innovative ways, you must assume Dusty will use players in the fashion he always has. Walker won't lead off, and Giles wouldn't be batted second. This isn't excuse making, it is reality of Baker, and until he is canned or leaves, we will just have to deal with it. I for one have accepted the reality of Hendry and Baker, and am hoping like hell Furcal gets signed and Hendry manages to trade for a good outfielder or two. Ignoring Furcal to pursue a player who we are longshots to get is pure foolishness. Furcal is available, there is a minimum of competition, he fills a need, and he is publicly open to playing in Chicago. Giles is available, there is more competition from teams he has a preference to play for, he fills a need, but has not been linked to the Cubs much at all. I say secure what we can first, then focus on the things that will take more work. To me it seems that too many people here are too focused on Brains Giles . It's like and thing not Giles related is met with derision. Guys the Cubs had last year that had a higher OBP than Furcal had last year that were capable of leading off: Walker Murton Cedeno Guys who can be traded for that would provide a comparable or better OBP at a much lower cost: Lofton Lugo Pierre Bradley Michaels (if available) Wilkerson Why put all your eggs in one basket for a guy (Furcal) who can be replaced by 1 or more of the guys listed above? Give me a list of guys we can use in place of Brian Giles and his production that we have in house or from the outside like I have above and who would come considerably cheaper. Don't forget, I'm looking for equal production. Have fun......

That list of players could build a pretty good bullpen from arby eligible players on small market teams. That's the way I'd go instead of dumping a 2 or 3 year deal in Eyre's lap.

Yes. A whole bunch from what I understand. JK Ryu Ricky Nolasco Carlos Marmol Jon Connolly Ryan O'Malley Carmen Pignatiello Rich Hill Jason Wylie Hagerty Carlos Vazquez Buck Coats Matt Craig Micah Hoffpauir Adam Greenberg Dwaine Bacon Brandon Sing Bobby Brownlie Chadd Blasko Sean Marshall Billy Petrick Felix Pie Brian Dopirak Jake Fox Matt Murton This was compiled quite a while back, so there are a few that can be removed and a few that can be added as Rule 5 eligible. A few have already been added as well. Look at the pitchers alone: I'd hate to see any of these pitchers get picked up: Marmol, Petrick, Nolasco, Blasko, Marshall, Connolly, Ryu and Brownlie.

Ah, following in Brian Giles footsteps.

Pittsburgh isn't on the West Coast and that's where he signed his first big contract.

I see the Yankees getting Damon so that they call a moral victory against Boston while getting not only a decent OBP guy for the top of the order, but also a centerfielder who can cover a lot more ground than Giles. Mark my words. If the Cardinals get Giles, forget the division title for the next 3 years, no matter who we get. Those that "claim" declining skills is a legitimate reason for not getting him will be able to sit beside me everyday and watch just how little Giles skills will decline as he helps St. Louis win 3 more straight division titles. Put Giles back in the NL Central and watch his offense go crazy, especially hitting around other good hitters, something he hasn't much opportunity to do in his career.

I understand and sympathize with your point. But just to play devil's advocate, I've seen enough Cub teams with lousy relief to appreciate what it would mean to get consistently quality relief. There is good reason to feel Eyre would be an unsafe sign. There's a chance he'll be solid, and a chance he'll go remlinger/Hawkins. But that's also true with other candidates. Would you prefer to give Andy Pratt a whirl? Or perhaps Cliff Bartosh? Mark Guthrie? The pool of sure-success LH relievers that are available is zero in size. Every lefty reliever that could be had will have some risk. Eyre's risk may be pretty high. Bug given the pool, it may be that the alternatives have even higher risk. Hendry may be justified in taking a gamble on the least-risky bet out there. Doesn't make it safe by any means. But there are even riskier ways to go than Eyre. We all know that wanting to help the pen and throwing money at it is no guarantee that the resulting pen will actually work out. And Hendry has done enough Alf/Hawkins/Remlingers so that doubts about his relief pickups are well justified. But I'm not sure that means you should give up trying, and just settle for Bartosh cheapos. I'm pretty interested in trying to have a solid, deep bullpen. Haven't seen that since 2001. When the pen is short on quality guys, Dusty will keep going back to the hot hands. Sometimes in the process the guys who were competent get fried and then you don't have any competent guys left after a while. Having a depth of competence in the pen could help a ton, and could also do a lot to keep the competent guys from getting burned out. Will Eyre be competent? I'm not sure about that. But if he is, it could be money well spent. Is Eyre a better bet than say, Jeremy Affeldt? The latter is a prime example of guys who would be available for the right deal in trade. We have guys who are getting ready to be exposed to rule 5. Do we want to sign a free agent that blocks another 40 man roster spot without giving up anyone in trade? I'm not real fond of signing set up/middle relievers to more than a 1 year deal. The last few have really bitten the Cubs. But with all the guys the Cubs have available in trade, I find it even more insane to spend money on free agents that will likely cost considerably more.

I'd be fine with these theories if I heard it from the one of the horse's mouths. If Giles doens't want to come to Chicago, I want to hear Hendry say "Giles said he is unwilling to sign a contract to play for the Cubs". Then we can move on. Without it, we are left speculating why the Cubs seem to be completely ignoring the best free agent option on the market.

One more reason the Cubs should be in on the Giles sweepstakes is because the Cardinals appear to be playing the game. I don't advocate going after someone just because a rival is going after that guy. But, if it's a position of need, and the guy is a perfect fit, you have to. If the Cardinals sign Giles, game over. Period. What can the Cubs do to even remotely compete with St. Louis for the next 3 years if they have Pujols, Giles, Rolen, Edmonds in the heart of their order? Reduced to battling for a wild card in '06,'07 and '08. Wouldn't that just be grand?

If the Cardinals can afford to get into bidding wars for Giles, why can't the Cubs? The Cardinals need Giles a whole lot less than the Cubs do. The Cardinals have a whole lot less to spend on an outfielder than the Cubs do. The Cardinals are a good team with or without Giles. The Cubs are not a good team as it stands. Adding Furcal at 10m a season will not make them good. Pujols, Edmonds, Rolen is what makes the Cardinals good. They can replace the other 5 with spare parts and bit pieces and be good. By the way, that is exactly what they have done. They've gone from Renteria at SS to David Eckstein. They went from Bo Hart at 2nd to Womack to Grudz. They've had Sanders, who is not very high on anyone's priority list this offseason. Matheny was replaced by Molina. Walker did replace Drew, but both were injured about as often as they were healthy. The Cubs would have a comparable super 3 in Lee, Giles, Ramirez. After that, spare parts and bit pieces would make the an offensive equivilent to St. Louis (if they went with guys who provide decent OBP like St. Louis does). This isn't to say "pattern your offense like St. Louis". It just makes so much sense for Giles that it's absolutely ridiculous that the Cubs aren't wining and dining Giles right now. I can't help but think of DKWG's post about Giles in an earlier thread where it's broken down as to all the reasons Brian Giles should be signed, even if it becomes a bidding war. No player makes more sense than Giles this offseason.

Because the Cubs have made the mistake of narrowing their focus too specifically on the need to improve leadoff instead of just improving the team overall. They've lamented that lack of traditional leadoff hitters in the league, which drives up the cost of the few remaining. And they've fallen right into the trap of overpaying for overhyped value. If the overall team production is good enough, it really doesn't matter who is hitting where. You get yourself into trouble when you make acquisitions for specific spots in the order, instead of just filling all 8 positions adaquately. Agreed. The Yankees NEED a true CFer. Damon is there for the taking. It also sounds like they'd give him a 4/44m contract. Will Boston pony up that kind of cash for Damon? Boston has the resources to give prospects to Florida for Pierre. If the Yankees go the Damon route, who is going to offer Giles more than the Cubs can? Get in the Giles bidding already and quit playing around. With the Furcal demands up around 5/50m, I'd be fine with Cedeno at SS.

I only have 6 listed because it was either Tracy or Sweeney. If we can get Wes Helms that'd be great. But Dusty loves Macias. So my bet is he is back. He can love Macias all he wants. Open up the spare bedroom at his mansion and let Macias sleep over every night. Give Macias a little office next to Dusty's and Macias can have the title "equipment manager". Just because Dusty "loves" him doesn't necessarily mean he should have a roster spot on a major league team. If that's the case, might as well give Darren Baker a glove and a contract.

Has Furcal seen the Cubs playoff history? I suggest he sign that $50m (or more) contract in Atlanta. There is just absolutely no way I would play that game with Furcal's agent.

I don't understand why we are offering free agent contracts to middle relievers when we have all these minor leaguers that need to be moved? Couldn't we trade for some arby eligible middle relievers?

$20m can free up next year with Maddux and Wood off the books. If Pie replaced Pierre or some other arby eligible CF, you have freed up money there too. If you went with Cedeno at SS rather than Furcal, once again you have a huge savings there for the next several years. Pie, Murton and Cedeno (if all pan out and become major league regulars) make it where you can sign a guy like Giles.

At the same time, the Yankees don't seem like a likely destination. What they really need is a good defensive CFer, and probably one that can hit at the top of the order. An outfield of Matsui/Giles/Sheffield will not be a good one, defensively speaking. Giles is a good defender in left or right, but he'll be subpar at best in CF. If Giles wants to do that, let him. But, until he is signed by the Yankees, we should definitely be signing him. The speculation that Giles' skills are deteriorating is hogwash. The reason the HR's are down is because of the spacious park dimensions in the NL West, especially Petco. Matsui has told the Yankees that he feels most comfortable in CF, so maybe the Giles rumors do have legs.

Meanwhile, the Yankees are so concerned about his diminishing skills, they're willing to give him their CF job. After Bernie Williams was horrible for the last few years defensively, they think highly enough of him to stick him in CF.

Klesko is done in the outfield. He's moving to 1b.

There is no room on the bench for Macias. You have 7 guys listed. If you have 8 in the field and 7 on the bench, you only have room for 5 starters and 5 bullpen guys. Macias' batting average as a PH last year was .184. His OBP was just as bad. The Macias experiment has failed 2 years in a row. I don't believe in 3rd time is a charm. Let's be done with him already. Get a real 3b back up in case Aramis misses any significant time next year, like Wes Helms or sumsing (in my best Napolean Dynomite voice). Want to see a coincidence? The Cubs made the playoffs in 2003. Then they added Jose Macias and they haven't been back since. :wink:

Triple B, I was talking to one of my best sources today, and he felt that Roberts might actually be a good fit, and seems to recall that Hendry had expressed interest in him in the past. That is not to say we should start any Roberts to the Cubs rumours here, but he may definitely be an option for Hendry for CF/lead-off, if Cameron passes his physical. I think being arby elgible will make him very attractive to Hendry because of the Cubs cash situation. I'm not so sure San Diego will want to get rid of Roberts. They spent a ton just to get him (Jay Payton, Ramon Vazquez, a minor leaguer and cash to help Boston with Payton's contract). Cameron certainly isn't a lead off hitter. Who on that team is if they get rid of Roberts? San Diego has wanted to improve their defense because of their pitching dominated park. If they can land Jacque Jones for the other outfield spot, they may have the best outfield defense in the NL. Roberts, Loretta, Klesko, Cameron, Jones, Castilla, Greene, Benji Molina?/Miguel Olivo Weird offense to say the least.