Wild_Cubs04

My math says we have to wait another 9 years. :x Be careful people that live in Chicago because I have a feeling that if the Sox win your town might get a little harry during the "celebration". Grabs shotgun and plenty of shells.... :twisted:

Who cares?

:lol: awesome.

How did they cheat? They got the benefit of a bad call. Last time I checked that's hardly cheating. Exactly, can't seem to understand how one would call the Sox cheaters in that situation. Not like AJ juked the ump into the call. If you are gonna be P.O'ed at anyone, be ticked at the umps. I give credit to AJ for running it out.

Lmao

Very good then. Then, personally I don't have a problem with your stance on McGwire. My problem comes when people allow fan bias to be something that goes beyond baseball. I'm not the biggest of hecklers, but I will do my share. On the other hand, I'm quite open about why I do it and that my cheering of or dislike of other players usually is tied to my fan bias. I'd never say I hate McGwire for steroids unless I'm willing to make the same statement against Sosa or others. But to show the reverse of my point: I was in St. Louis two summers ago and not during the Cubs-Cardinals series. I went to a Marlins-Cardinals game and during the game I had a conversation with a guy who learned I was a Cub fan. He seemed friendly enough and we talked for a good portion of the game. He told me that he "hated" Sosa and loved to heckle him when the Cards played the Cubs, but not because he was a Cub, but because you just knew he did steroids...yada yada yada. After he finished his rant on the game in general and Sosa's sins in particular, I responded with then you must feel the same way about McGwire. At first I got a blank stare...then a changing of the subject...and then later about how McGwire was "different" from Sosa. That is the epitome of fan bias. I'd have no problem if he said I "hate" Sosa because he's a Cub, but to tie the other to it when looking the other way about one of your own, is ignorant fan bias in a nutshell. Does it exist on all sides of the fence? Yes. Good post. Honestly, any dislike that I have for ANY Cubs is probably directly related to the fact that they're Cubs, as you explained. Sosa's "cheating" hardly ever crossed my mind. I had some fun with the whole "cork" thing, but who didn't? I don't think about the "cheating" aspect of that nearly as much as I think about the "stupid" aspect of him doing it. Those are the 2 best posts in this thread.

Can I assume, then, by your statements that if you attended Cubs-Cardinal games in previous years that you made no judgements toward Sosa as well, and limited your heckling or opinions of him to the fact he was a Cub and no different than you would have heckled or expressed opinion of any Cub superstar player? I conclude this sense you say you don't have time to "judge" on issues as trivial as baseball. I've never heckled Sosa. I playfully dislike the Cubs simply because the rivalry is fun. I'm indifferent about most Cubs players. I really like Kerry Wood, Derrek Lee, Corey Patterson, Ryan Dempster. They seem to have a cool attitude. But I don't spend much negative energy on the Cubs, so I'm certainly not going to spend much negativity on former Cardinals. See!!!! He's a CPatt fan....now it all comes out :wink:

My apologies METarp, done here.

That's a fine theory. The problem is that the only difference between Mac & Sosa and some of the guys that you openly admire is that Sosa & Mac got "caught" (not Mac, really...... but the perception is that he did). Basically, you're either naive enough to think that others aren't cheating, or you're OK with it as long as they don't get "busted". So it's more than perception on Sosa? It's the cork littering the infield at Wrigley Field. That's not steroids, so there's a perception that Big Mac corked his bat? I didn't say anything about steroids. We're talking about "cheating". Sosa got caught cheating, and there's a perception that Mac got caught cheating. I don't think there is a perception that Mac got caught cheating....there may however be a perception that he is guilty of cheating because of the sham he pulled at the Hearings and his nice follow through being the "Juice Spokesperson".

That's a fine theory. The problem is that the only difference between Mac & Sosa and some of the guys that you openly admire is that Sosa & Mac got "caught" (not Mac, really...... but the perception is that he did). Basically, you're either naive enough to think that others aren't cheating, or you're OK with it as long as they don't get "busted". So it's more than perception on Sosa? It's the cork littering the infield at Wrigley Field. That's not steroids, so there's a perception that Big Mac corked his bat?

That's a fine theory. The problem is that the only difference between Mac & Sosa and some of the guys that you openly admire is that Sosa & Mac got "caught" (not Mac, really...... but the perception is that he did). Basically, you're either naive enough to think that others aren't cheating, or you're OK with it as long as they don't get "busted". So it's more than perception on Sosa?

A-Freakin-men

His attitude makes up for a slight regression next year IMO.

Any answer I give you will simply open the door for you to call me a foolish blind homer. Why should I bother? I don't think I have implied that you were blind, foolish, or homerish, it was a serious question. Just trying to understand both sides/opinions if you will. "What I will not do, however, is participate in naming names and implicating my friends and teammates. I retired from baseball four years ago. I live a quiet life with my wife and children. I have always been a team player. I have never been a person who spread rumors or said things about teammates that could hurt them. I do not sit in judgment of other players, whether it deals with their sexual preference, their marital problems, or other personal habits, including whether or not they use chemical substances. That has never been my style, and I do not intend to change this just because the cameras are turned on. "Nor do I intend to dignify Mr. Canseco's book. It should be enough that you consider the source of the statements in the book, and that many inconsistencies and contradictions have already been raised. "I've been advised that my testimony here could be used to harm friends and respected teammates, or that some ambitious prosecutor can use convicted criminals who would do and say anything to solve their own problems and create jeopardy for my friends. "Asking me or any other player to answer questions about who took steroids in front of television cameras will not solve the problem. If a player answers no, he simply will not be believed. If he answers yes, he risks public scorn and endless government investigations. My lawyers have advised me that I cannot answer these questions without jeopardizing my friends, my family, and myself. I intend to follow their advice. Granted, the panel never asked him to "name names", but I don't think that McGwire knew what to expect, going into the hearings, so he and his attorney simply designed a strategy to take the safe route. All of the players at the hearing looked foolish, in my mind. People like to single out McGwire because he took a different direction than the other players at the hearings. Didn't know what to expect? I think he knew very well what to expect at the hearings, as did the rest of the players, etc that were there. Safe route for what, to avoid giving a yes or no? I completely understand the family and quiet part...but...he said he didn't want to jeopardize his friends, family, if he didn't juice wouldn't you think him clearing his name from the "speculated" list would be better for them all? I don't give 2 shakes about him naming names per say, I want to know if HE did or didn't juice plain and simple.

Any answer I give you will simply open the door for you to call me a foolish blind homer. Why should I bother? I don't think I have implied that you were blind, foolish, or homerish, it was a serious question. Just trying to understand both sides/opinions if you will.

Agreed, Thank You all for the hard work and effort. Tis greatly appreciated.

Question for K-Town.....what, in your opinion, is the reason that he sealed shut at the hearings and utilized the 5th?

Did McGwire get caught cheating? Has he proven he didn't cheat?

So it's not hypocritical for me to call McGwire a cheat, liar, and horrible human being and yet still cheer Sosa. Cool, glad we got it settled. Basically, you've affirmed fan bias. If a player is loyal to an organization and done other admirable things in the name of the organization and brought enjoyment to its fans, it's entirely ok to look the other way concerning the character of such an individual. However, if a player hasn't exhibited those traits to the team which you are a fan of, it's entirely ok to chide and ridicule such a player for the same traits you turn a blind eye to of your own player. Or, if my child misbehaves, that's just kids being kids; if your child does it, he's a bad kid. I understand completely. "Character" can be judged by much more than simply being accused of using steroids. Just because McGwire is accused of using steroids, that doesn't make him a bad human being. Just because your child, or my child makes a mistake, that doesn't make them "bad kids". You have to evaluate the entire picture. In Sosa's case, he showed alot of arrogance, corked his bat, probably used steroids, walked out on the team, chided them with his boom box, and came across as being an overall jerk. McGwire played the game, praised St. Louis, and slipped off to spend time with his family. I'm fine with him. Is that biased? Maybe. But to a certain extent, that's what being a fan is all about. If you're looking for the perfect player to root for, lotsa' luck. Dude, do YOU even believe half the crud in your own post's here? Slipped off to spend time with family sure sounds like a good excuse huh... Sosa played the game, praised Chicago (even when he was no longer a Cub, see news paper add thanking the City and the fans) and slipped off to do God knows what the last game of the season.....what's the difference?

Lmao, have never heard the "splitting" thing before, very good :lol:

He'll play against Mulder because he has success against the lefties, dude. Ronny will learn from veterans Walker and Hairston how to interpret signs. It's all good. Steve Garvey said so. Lmfao, sooooooooooo true.

It's Wikipedia's definition. Can you find another on that doesn't mention the Cy Young being an award for the best pitcher in the league? What do you think the award is for? The most productive pitcher, maybe? The most valuable pitcher, maybe? The pitcher who has helped his team the most? Couldn't find a different definition, huh? Didn't look until just now. I haven't dug too deep, but I did find this little tidbit: Did you know... The record for the most major league baseball career innings is held by Cy Young, with 7,356 innings. Seems to me that in the spirit of the award, innings pitched would be extremely important. He pitched for 22 years and won 511 games which is still a record today. He holds the major league record for complete games with 751. He is fourth on the all time list for shutouts with 76. He led the league in shutouts seven times. He led the league in wins four times. Sounds alot like an award that's custom-made for a guy like Chris Carpenter. I didn't find anything about him that's related to ERA. oh man i have not laughed out loud at a post in a while, but geez, man. this post made my day. i needed a laugh. thanks. Ditto

Away from Billy Wagner. How come CPatt? NM, don't know what I was looking at hehe, 24 mill seems high.

Throwing at a guy's head is a good defense? It's a ball. Four of them puts the batter on first base (if you don't end the guy's career, first). Is that what you want? If Morris hadn't quickly hit the dirt, the pitch would have shattered his face. I don't care if you're Nolan Ryan, Kerry Wood, or a 12 year old........... you don't throw at a guy's head under any circumstances. That's not even close to what Vance said, you must just like to twist words and argue??

Do you think they will always have Wrigley? Just add on to it, improve it, or eventually build a new stadium.