jjgman21

fourth attempt - anyone? anyone? Anderson. Anderson. Bueller. Bueller. damn. I got everyone riled up. bumping once more trying to get this to the top. bumping cuz I don't think anyone saw this in their haste to argue with me. I haven't looked at those threads since my last posts in them. I'm done with those arguments. come on guys. let's talk about what could be done. we know the sports journalists read this message board. maybe they filter some of the great ideas we come up with back to the front office. .... alright, enough of the tit for tat in other threads. I worked my way to this plan over the weekend, and I think it is not only a good plan to put the organization back together quickly, it is also feasible. I hoped for comments or argument to help me flesh it out (like earlier in the thread, thanks TT). what does everyone think? edit - lmao at the auto edit

one player does not make a trend. I am looking for a trend. I do not have definitive proof of said trend, just a few pieces of evidence. those few pieces of evidence, in my mind, are enough to defeat the notion that "Hendry currently does not value walks" is a fact that can be demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt. furthermore, you don't believe Hendry when he says anything about injuries to the Cubs players, why do you believe him when he says "we like guys who can catch the ball" or other things like that? both are in the same catagory, half truths meant to preserve the image of the organization as a whole in order to continue generating revenue by not upsetting the fan base. the last thing you should use as evidence of Hendry's mindset are the things he says.

Actually, I think that goony disputed it quite well... And the "it takes one hit to score from first?" comments help clarify someone's position. Do they really mean that, is it hyperbole, or am I just mis-reading it? gooney's point is a great illustration of the hypocrisy I am talking about. we all know that runs scored and RBI are team oriented stats, but when assessing a player that is not likes, suddenly the team related stats go out the window. no attempt is made to isolate Pierre's ability. this is illustrated quite well with Cubscolts post immediately above.

Moneyball, SABR, and all the adherents thereto. Hooray for generalizations. another generalization for you. African-Americans are generally darker in skin tone than other peoples in America. it may be a generalization, but the veracity of the statement cannot be disputed. Hooray for meaningless contributions to a thread.

perhaps an illustration is necessary. in the argument of Pierre or Wilkerson, nobody who advocates Wilkerson will give an ounce of credit to Pierre for his superior defensive range. that aspect of the game just doesn't matter. when those same people come on and rant about Jones, suddenly defense is a huge part of the game that has to be taken into account to point out how much he sucks.

Moneyball, SABR, and all the adherents thereto. I personally agree with much of those peoples' assessment of defense and it's lack of importance in the big picture (with the exception of absolute butchers). what I can't stand is people sitting on both sides of the fence when it suits their current argument.

I don't see what the Blue Jays ex-draft guy has to do with appreciating walks. That organization turned more sabr-centric when he wasn't there. You can point out little individual reasons why you think it's not true, but the big picture suggests otherwise. They are last in walks, by a wide margin, and the organization is dominated by overly aggressive hackers. There just is not enough to support the notion that he's coming along. Maybe he values walks to some extent, but the evidence shows he values them less than any other organization in the league. And that's what matters. the Blue Jays ex-draft guy is relevant because of the good discipline and walk rates of the hitters he drafted. the big picture does suggest otherwise Hendry has not valued walks in the past. that is why I suggested that Hendry is coming around, not that he valued walks all along. my point is not that Hendry absolutely, without a doubt values walks. my point is there is evidence that he's gaining a greater appreciation for walks. the fact that evidence has not shown up tangibly in the lineup to this point is really not material. further, 5/8 of the lineup that should be out there day in/day out are historically pretty good or vastly improved at taking walks. not great, but pretty good (Walker, Lee, Aram, Barrett, Murton).

see my point in the other thread about using defense to bash one player, but discounting it when someone else tries to defend a different player. I'd take a guy who hits the cutoff man every time and prevents extra bases that way than a Sosa-esque player who throws out 8 guys a year but gives away 50 extra bases a year by airmailing everybody. in other words, strong outfield arms are severly overrated if the player isn't smart with the use of that arm. more generally, I don't take issue with the opposition to the notion that a high speed/ low obp guy is better for a team. what I take issue with is taking things out of context to try to make an argument look ridiculous. the point that Pierre is more likely than almost any other player in the game to score once reaching first can't be disputed, and the sarcastic "it takes one hit to score from first?" type posts do nothing to contribute to the conversation. and let me make this clear...I don't like Pierre in center, and I don't like Jones in right without a right handed platoon partner. I just want a realistic assessment of this team without hyperbole to assess where we are and have meaningful conversations about where we want this team to go.

You make a good point with some of the lesser tier players he's acquired. But the fact remains, the minor league teams and big league rosters are dominated by guys who do not walk. This problem has gotten worse under Hendry's watch. So the notion that a couple trades where he got a patient guy indicates he's coming around on the walks issue just don't hold up. well there's also the acquisition and quick assention of Murton, the signing of Lee, the better discipline of Barrett, some of the draft picks he's made, getting the Blue Jays ex-draft manager. not a water tight case, but certainly enough evidence to discount the "Hendry doesn't value walks" argument.

No one is hating on Jones for his production thus far. We just think it is unrealistic for him to keep performing at this level for an extended period of time. We are looking further out than the 20/20 hindsight involved in looking at the last few months. Jones is earning his money at the moment, we aren't denying that. Have you actually read the posts? I have been against his signing from day one and while he has performed at the plate, his defense and baserunning have been undeniably horrible. How hard is it to see that he has been hot for a couple of months hitting and that his career numbers don't suggest he can keep up that pace? I hated the signing of Jones too. I was so p'd off about it I didn't even come to NSBB for two weeks. but that doesn't change the fact that Jones' expected production costs about exactly what he's being paid in today's market. and it's amazing that when arguing about the contributions of defense and baserunning in the context of, let's say the Cubs centerfielder, many of the same people who rip on Jones for defense and baserunning will tell you how unimportant those aspects of the game are. strawman argument I know, but it's rampant. I just seek consistent rationale and facts in these discussions instead of conjecture, misinformation, and hypocrisy. I seek poeple make positive suggestions instead of just bitching for the sake of bitching, and using faulty logic to do so.

I don't advocate retaining Pierre whatsoever. however, stop taking the posters comments out of context and to a ridiculous extreme. you all know what he is saying, and you all know that Pierre at 1B >>> let's say Wilkerson at 1B. there's a myriad of ways a fast runner can get around the bases and score after reaching first than if a medium running player is at first.

another thread with arguments fueled by misinformation and medium term memory loss. Encarnacion signed a 3 year 15M contract. Jones a 3 year 16M contract. is 50 additional points in OPS worth 1M over three years? I think it is. second, let's recall who most everybody who hates Jones and has hated him from the beginning advocated getting. would Giles be worth the 15-17M per for three years so many of you advocated throwing at him? everyone bitches that Hendry won't admit his own mistakes. where are the admissions that the moves that didn't go down might have been good moves and the advocates on this board were completely wrong (2004 - Huff, 2005 - Kotsay, 2006 - Giles)? a good right handed hitting platoon parthner for Jones in rightfield gives us all the production we want out of the position. whether Hendry goes out and gets on remains to be seen, but Jones' contract is not an albatross on this organization.

Why, you expect the Cubs to even make an offer? Why waste team talking about a player, when you KNOW in your heart the Cubs have no interests in. Meaning even if Ichiro is available, the Cubs ain't interested. Willy Pierre Juan Taverez Makes me no never mind. I expect the Cubs to acquire SOMEBODY else with Taverez to make a deal worthwhile, I would love to take Brandon Backe off their hands. why are you so sure the cubs aren't interested? He's fast, a great defender and bats leadoff - all things the cubs value. How about the fact that Ichiro has a career .377 OBP, and the fact that the Cubs simply don't understand that getting on base is the object of the game. They would view Ichiro as a baseclogging, and instantly deem him "not a good fit." I would love to have Ichiro, but with the current regime, he would be tremendously WASTED. I think the 'Hendry doesn't value obp' argument goes way too far, as exemplified by this post and the unnecessary large font. what I think Hendry undervalues is walks. a .380 obp achieved through a .350 average is just the type of player Hendry would like. further, a bit of evidence that Hendry is coming around to the value of walks can be seen by the players he has acquired in the giveaway trades the past couple years. Moore, Fontenot, Lewis. these are all guys that will take their walks. I think, at least I hope, he's coming around, but not willing to admit his prior stance was a mistake. not that I would advocate getting Ichiro because I think the players and pay it would take to get/keep him would be too hight for a guy with little slugging. much less could get DeJesus from KC.

Once he took an outside corner fastball for strike 3....he should be booted off the team for that and sent to Oakland or Boston. That ain't no way to play ball. I'd really like to see his walk rate without all the 3-2 inside fastballs that were outside the zone but called strikes.

do you? every retooling idea I've seen you make has Murton sitting on the bench or platooning. a bit of a strawman argument, but I am simply amazed at the number of posters who rip Dusty for not playing young players, then turn around and say Murton is not the answer in left and Cedeno is not the answer at short. Considering we're stuck with Jones, that handicaps the upgrades we can make. I'm not opposed to Murton starting and think he can be a great complimentary player. But with the current construction of this team, and the prospects for improvement that exist, I think platooning Murton with Jones may be the best option available. Now, if Murton were given regular playing time for the remainder of the season, he may be able to prove that he's more than what I believe he currently is. that's a false choice though. stop expecting five .390/.525 positions out of this baseball team. find a platoon partner for Jones in right, and let Murton play everyday. that gives you four positions out of the lineup where you can expect .375/.500 in most lineups you run out there (1B, 3B, RF, and C), and allows you to put a group of complimentary obp guys around that core, ie. Matt Murton, with the added benefit of waiting to see if Murton can become a .390/.525 guy. Murton's power would come out immediately with a slight adjustment that the Cubs coaching staff just can't figure out. he usually waits for a good pitch to hit, always puts a good swing on the ball, usually gets the sweet spot of the bat on the ball, it's just a matter of not hitting the top of the ball all the time. edit - see Sulley's thread in transactions. it would not be hard to retool this team with a couple of realistic trades and a couple of realistic signings. I think vance's rationale is that we need one more big bat to go with lee and ramirez and the easiest place to find that is in a corner outfield spot. If we could get a tejada at short or a edmonds during his prime in center I bet he could live with Murton and Jones at the corners. I perfectly understand his rational. my rational is you already have two other near 900+ OPS positions simply by finding a right handed platoon partner for Jones in right, for a total of four (again, 1B, 3B, C, and RF). this could be accomplished fairly easily. when the Cubs start having a Yankees payroll, they can start assembling a Yankees lineup. until that time, be happy with 4 thumpers, three OBP positions, and let Cedeno develop. edit for typo

Still no love. sorry man, but I have no love for Matheny or Ausmus as great all time catchers either. you have to do more than play defense to be great in my mind.

where's the throw up in my mouth a little bit emoticon? in this market, Williamson could bring such a better player.

do you? every retooling idea I've seen you make has Murton sitting on the bench or platooning. a bit of a strawman argument, but I am simply amazed at the number of posters who rip Dusty for not playing young players, then turn around and say Murton is not the answer in left and Cedeno is not the answer at short. Considering we're stuck with Jones, that handicaps the upgrades we can make. I'm not opposed to Murton starting and think he can be a great complimentary player. But with the current construction of this team, and the prospects for improvement that exist, I think platooning Murton with Jones may be the best option available. Now, if Murton were given regular playing time for the remainder of the season, he may be able to prove that he's more than what I believe he currently is. that's a false choice though. stop expecting five .390/.525 positions out of this baseball team. find a platoon partner for Jones in right, and let Murton play everyday. that gives you four positions out of the lineup where you can expect .375/.500 in most lineups you run out there (1B, 3B, RF, and C), and allows you to put a group of complimentary obp guys around that core, ie. Matt Murton, with the added benefit of waiting to see if Murton can become a .390/.525 guy. Murton's power would come out immediately with a slight adjustment that the Cubs coaching staff just can't figure out. he usually waits for a good pitch to hit, always puts a good swing on the ball, usually gets the sweet spot of the bat on the ball, it's just a matter of not hitting the top of the ball all the time. edit - see Sulley's thread in transactions. it would not be hard to retool this team with a couple of realistic trades and a couple of realistic signings.

the Dodgers have had one of the best farm systems in baseball since farm systems were created. they should just stop making trades and signing FAs, let their stars walk and take the draft picks. every trade and signing they make seems to go horribly wrong for them.

do you? every retooling idea I've seen you make has Murton sitting on the bench or platooning. a bit of a strawman argument, but I am simply amazed at the number of posters who rip Dusty for not playing young players, then turn around and say Murton is not the answer in left and Cedeno is not the answer at short.

I think Fisk deserves a little more love, simply because he remained a plus offensive player and was a great catcher for 10 years more than just about anyone on this list. and where's Steve Swischer? McCarver and Shalk truly have no place on this list.

I think most every trade I have seen overpays, and I can't stand the ideas of building the team via FAs like suggested in the other thread. I am rethinking my earlier suggestions, but am steadfast in my idea that the team need not be blown up or several FA signings are needed to shape this team up. if you are going to overpay, you do it to teams not in contention to get young yet established talent. if you trade with contending teams you have all the bargaining power. how about this. Maddux to the dodgers as I suggested earlier for Jose Cruz Jr., or to some similar team for a similar player as Cruz. the Dodgers need starters and they have a surplus of outfielders. they would go for it. the Royals are not going to want to pay DeJesus as he enters arbitration. I think he could be had. Pie, Hill/Marshall, Wuertz/Aardsma for DeJesus. FA signings are Zito/Schmidt, Craig Wilson, and maybe an innings eatter fourth starter type or bullpen help. with the premium on setup guys and middle relievers in this market, you still trade away a bunch of the bullpen (Williamson, one or two of Howry/ Dempster/Eyre, Novoa, Wuertz/Aardsma), the crap or soon to be gone anyway (Walker, Pierre, Rusch, Maybr, Nevin, etc.), and one or two of the rest Hill/Marshall, Guz, Ryu, etc. for minor league sticks. I will leave it up to others to figure out some good deals. here's your lineup with estimated line (attempting middle ground estimates), approximate cost of 45M DeJesus .385/.475 Fontenot .350/.425 Lee .390/.525 Aram .375/.525 Jones/Cruz .365/.500 Barrett .365/.500 Murton .360/.425 Cedeno P Bench approx 9M Wilson Theriot Perez Soto Pagan Cruz/Jones Rotation, est cost of 31-35M Z Zito/Schmidt Prior innings eatter or Hill/Marshall/Guz/Ryu Marmol Pen, est cost of 12-17M, or a little more if fishing for FAs the remaining of Howry/Dempster/Eyre Ohman remaining right handed young guys FA or two. that team is young, good, on base a ton, has 210+ HR potential, and has the added benefit of stocking the farm with some good young sticks. and more than anything, it avoids putting a ton of stupid money into a weak FA crop, and making short end of the stick/giveaway trades.

everyone is disagreeing with the conotations of his statements, ie. that playing Theriot means losing. I disagree with the statement on its face. no, you don't have to keep on winning games. you need to do what you can to ensure the team is better next year, which means giving kids experience and keeping everyone healthy. follow up question to Baker if he uses the preserve the pennant race card - "so that means if your best chance to win a ballgame is extending Z to 135 pitches in a game, you'd do it right?" or "if that means using Howry 5 or 6 days in a row, you do it right?" that excuse is a pre-textual load of crap.

He played him one on one the entire game. Even after he burned them for a TD on one of the first plays of the game. Then Holmgren did what everyone else should've been doing - triple-teaming him and basically daring Carolina to throw to a banged-up Colbert and a joke Drew Carter - and the Panthers couldn't get anything going. That's why. and that "one" wasn't Nathan Vasher. another problem was Mike Brown never coming back to form after the injury. Vash with a healthy Brown over the top and the Bears win the game.

The 1969 season is a season that truly chronicles a Cubs fans' pain and frustration. It's just overshadowed now because of the 2003 season. sort of the way the ball between Buckner's legs is the most famous error of all time, when only two years earlier a ball got through another firstbaseman's legs in the post season.