obcubs

Seconded

i wonder if soriano will move down in the order with Ramirez out....

Marquis gets $4.75 million next year, $6,375,000 in 2008 and $9,875,000 in 2009. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16287633

That's a pointless question. Prior has been injured more over the past couple of years. Of course Buerhle has accumulated more total. The point is how you get there. If you only throw 1000 pitches in a season, but you do it in 6 games, it's probably going to be worse than racking up 3400 in 34 games. We don't know any of this for sure. But lots of people who have studied this believe that it's not the total number of innings or pitches that matter most (although you probably don't want young guys going from seasons with just 120 IP to seasons with 250 IP), it's how you rack them up. A series of repeatedly high pitch count games back to back without a couple less stressful games thrown in is most likely one of the worst ways to treat a young pitcher. Crossing the 110 pitch threshold in any one game is probably not a big deal, but doing it over and over, especially coming off of a shoulder injury, is probably extremely dumb, not to mention risky. I'd call it malpractice myself. I didn't want these guys pulled at 99 every game. But there was no reason to ever have them go 130 (let alone 140). When they went 110+ a couple in a row, I wanted them to get a break for a game or two on the low end. I wasn't asking for extreme caution, just some level of caution and not the completely reckless treatment they were given. So basically you are saying Baker is an idiot- yeah I have always agreed with that.

Thats called cherry-picking, look at his innings pitched. Are you kidding me? In terms of abuse, pitch counts mean a lot more than innings pitched. Look up total pitch counts over the last few years for Buerhle/Prior, who has thrown more? That's not cherry picking, that's exactly the point. Prior was abused as a young pitcher by being forced to stay in for extremely high pitch counts. He was left in a game to pitch after getting injured. He was kept in to pitch 130+ pitches multiple times, a pitch count far beyond what most pitchers are limited to. He averaged 120+ pitches per start the end the season after he injured his shoulder. He threw an excessive amount of pitches in the playoffs, even after his team had a game rapped up. There was no letting up on the gas pedal. There were no string of games where they pulled him after 95 pitches, like Buerhle had. The fact that Buerhle is more efficient with his pitches is completely irrelevent. It's the manager and pitching coach's responsibility to protect a young arm, regardless of whether or not he can finish 7 under 100 pitches or can't get thru 5 without throwing 110. If you want to talk about Prior's need to be more efficient, that's a different topic. And it's also a topic that has to involve coaches' responsibilities. Whether a pitcher is extended beyond normal usage patterns for young pitchers due to nibbling or not, when he gets to a certain point you have to pull him. Game after game in 2003 when Wood and Prior were racking up 115, 120, 130, 140 pitch counts, people were kicking and screaming for them to be pulled early. Some laughed at such supposed "kid glove" treatment. All I know is 2 years later and the guys can't get through a couple months without getting hurt and/or losing effectiveness. Anybody who feels justified in calling Prior a wimp, or a wuss, or weak, or frail, or just plain not tough enough, has to go back and look at how he was used, and how many pitches he was forced to throw game after game. Take a second to look at that and then ask yourself if maybe, just maybe, that treatment played a roll in later injuries. Pitchers get hurt from pitching, and they get hurt from pitching tired. Often times these injuries accumulate over time. It's not really a snap and you're done sort of thing. Pitcher abuse points are not a perfect predictor of injury. But when somebody leads the league in those and are near the top for quite a while, and then suffer some injuries, you'd have to be purposefully ignoring those facts if you claim that abuse couldn't have played a part in the injuries. But that doesnt answer the question who has thrown more pitches over the last couple of years Buerhle or Prior? I am guessing and I admit it is just a guess that Buerhle has. So another question would be: What is worse for pitchers higher pitch counts per game, or high pitch totals for the year?

That's certainly possible, and he could very well have flamed out because of it. In the Cubs defense, I can't think of any top end pitchers that were abused in one year and had it cost them their career in the last ten years, and nearly all top pitchers are abused at some point if not all the time. I would have thought that month off would have given him time to recover. Name me one 21, 22, 23 year old pitcher that was abused like Prior and didn't suffer any consequences. Mark Buerhle Buerhle, at 23 in 2002, had one game over more than 120 pitches. It was the last game of the year. He had none over 130. He had 10 games under 100, and was almost always around 103-106. In 2003, at 22/23, Prior had 3 games under 100 pitches (1 of which was coming back from the shoulder injury caused by the collision with Giles). He had 10 games over 120 pitches, 4 of which were over 130. Buerhle doesn't even come close to Prior in the abused pitcher discussion. Thats called cherry-picking, look at his innings pitched. Are you kidding me? In terms of abuse, pitch counts mean a lot more than innings pitched. Look up total pitch counts over the last few years for Buerhle/Prior, who has thrown more?

Yeah, that guy's take is stupid. I'm sure Prior really wants to be out of the lineup all the time. If he's continued to pitch like he did in 2003 - outstanding and durable - he'd have been in line for one of the largest free agent contracts for a pitcher in history. Instead, he hasn't pitched all that great the last two years, and he hasn't been durable at all. I really doubt that Prior wants to be costing himself $100 million like he's doing. I suggest a re-read his point isn't that Prior wants to be that way, the point is he was raised to be that way. According to 'rivalfish' that is.

That's certainly possible, and he could very well have flamed out because of it. In the Cubs defense, I can't think of any top end pitchers that were abused in one year and had it cost them their career in the last ten years, and nearly all top pitchers are abused at some point if not all the time. I would have thought that month off would have given him time to recover. Name me one 21, 22, 23 year old pitcher that was abused like Prior and didn't suffer any consequences. Mark Buerhle Buerhle, at 23 in 2002, had one game over more than 120 pitches. It was the last game of the year. He had none over 130. He had 10 games under 100, and was almost always around 103-106. In 2003, at 22/23, Prior had 3 games under 100 pitches (1 of which was coming back from the shoulder injury caused by the collision with Giles). He had 10 games over 120 pitches, 4 of which were over 130. Buerhle doesn't even come close to Prior in the abused pitcher discussion. Buerhle understands the importance of throwing strikes, low pitch count counts in order to get through games. Prior/Wood/Z could learn from him

That's certainly possible, and he could very well have flamed out because of it. In the Cubs defense, I can't think of any top end pitchers that were abused in one year and had it cost them their career in the last ten years, and nearly all top pitchers are abused at some point if not all the time. I would have thought that month off would have given him time to recover. Name me one 21, 22, 23 year old pitcher that was abused like Prior and didn't suffer any consequences. Mark Buerhle Buerhle, at 23 in 2002, had one game over more than 120 pitches. It was the last game of the year. He had none over 130. He had 10 games under 100, and was almost always around 103-106. In 2003, at 22/23, Prior had 3 games under 100 pitches (1 of which was coming back from the shoulder injury caused by the collision with Giles). He had 10 games over 120 pitches, 4 of which were over 130. Buerhle doesn't even come close to Prior in the abused pitcher discussion. Thats called cherry-picking, look at his innings pitched.

http://www.rivalfish.com/rivalroom/2006/05/mark-prior-tender-cha-cha.html One man's take, its better to laugh than cry, i guess. (Profanity Warning)

That's certainly possible, and he could very well have flamed out because of it. In the Cubs defense, I can't think of any top end pitchers that were abused in one year and had it cost them their career in the last ten years, and nearly all top pitchers are abused at some point if not all the time. I would have thought that month off would have given him time to recover. Name me one 21, 22, 23 year old pitcher that was abused like Prior and didn't suffer any consequences. Mark Buerhle

Thats mature.

I cant view the game right now. Quick scouting report on Guzman, what's he throwing? how fast?

i wonder if zambrano still thinks he has a shot at the cy young?

Its embarassing

Someone please convice me that Aramis Ramirez will start to hit the ball eventually. Thanks in advance....

Sad but very true.

Choi? He should come cheap.

Hopefully one of the beat writers hears something tonight (Miles).

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=69832 That ought to make the news of Lee's injury look better by comparison... :shock: No just no!

X-rays taken Wednesday of Lee's wrist were inconclusive. A team spokeswoman said she did not expect the results of Lee's exam to be released until Friday. http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060420&content_id=1409827&vkey=news_chc&fext=.jsp&c_id=chc

If that lasts past May 15th I'll buy you a hat. Aramis is just starting slow, just like last year. I'm not going to worry about him. Lets hope he heats up fast especially if Lee misses an extended amount of time.

Jay Payton as well?

The A's are apparently giving up Andre Ethier, according to radio stations in Oakland. Dodgers are trading Bradley and Antonio Perez.

IMO good deal for the Padres, I think Cameron will improve away from NY.