CUBZ99

My preference so far for manager is 1. Maddux - Whether or not he brings his brother with him or not, I think he would have a good impact on the pitching staff. Rothschild took some heat from casual fans, but the team missed him this year. It sounds like the Cubs are going to start giving younger players a chance and he could be an excellent mentor for Cashner, McNutt, Whitenack, Carpenter, Rhee etc. He also seems not to take himself too seriously. 2. Tito - If he is not too beaten down from last year. 3. Sandberg - I kid I kid. 4. Sveum - Not very personable, but seems to have an understanding or stats etc. 5. Alomar - His old school style isn't very impressive and it seemed like he was trying too hard in his interview with the media. Add to that his comment about using statistics and I don't see anyway that he is selected.

It would be comedic gold.

Maybe he has a set of Dusty Dice.

Don't tease us like that Jim Bowden. :beg: Like you I wonder who his sources are, especially since he recently made comments about the Cubs attempting to trade for Crawford. He sure seems to have some source. I guess we will find out how reliable it is.

If you harp on all the things he does that you consider lazy then you obviously consider the player lazy regardless of how you try to word the sentence. That's ridiculous. Ramirez has been one of my favorite players on the Cubs over the last several years. Just because I like him though, doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that some of the criticism leveled against him on certain plays may be valid.

You seem to be ignoring that white people are guilty of the same thing all the time. They're not the ones being singled out as lazy. Please point out these lazy white people that need to be singled out.

Once you get caught on TV running an easy double into a single, because you decided to go into a home run trot, you are going to get criticism, and rightfully so. I fail to see how losing the extra base is playing "smart". I will agree that there is the perception that Aramis seems to get piled on more than most, but isn't it possible that it is due more towards his attitude toward the media and general overall disposition? Rather than his race? In regard to Cutler, he absolutely does deal with the same issues with the media. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=6017986 http://www.thesportssession.net/2137/nfl-players-call-jay-cutler-physically-mentally-weak-is-he-really-a-soft-football-player.html http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/14590417/does-cutler-have-seriously-injured-knee-or-weak-heart http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-sports-guru/2011/01/jay-cutlers-persona-grants-him-no-sympathy-for-mcl-tear/ What the hell do you think lazy means? Yeah, a handful of idiots thought Cutler faked an injury until people with brains criticized them. He's not called lazy like you and other people are calling Ramirez. There you go exaggerating things. Simply because a player does lazy things at times does not mean that I think the player is lazy overall. But to say that criticism for lapses that were objectively observable is racist or somehow picking on a player is ignorant.

Lazy hispanic. You can stop posting these examples as they really are not helping your argument. None of what you are posting is falling back on stereotypical criticisms of players performing well at the time. Yet others have posted quite a few examples of players like aramis who get vilified for complaints that fall back on typical stereotypes about their race. Posting the examples that you are simply shows a lack of understanding of what is being said instead of refuting the argument. I doubt that Kaplan or any other major figure in the Chicago media is overtly racist. However, they do make many characterizations about certain players that very much fall into stereotypes. Once again the problem is that many of the complaints about Aramis have been justified or at least amplified by actual games. Not running out basehits....loafing on balls he thought were home runs....not hustling...poor decision making...etc.... I will agree with you that I think in regards to Aramis, his flat affect appearance sometimes doesn't do him justice. But the criticism is not limited to Kaplan and it is hardly race based. I think if he were white and did the same thing, he would be jumped on just the same. For a good example just look at Jay Cutler. That guy has taken a ton of criticism about his will to win, laziness, wimpiness etc. I think you are stretching to call it a race problem. dude STOP. aramis ramirez is not lazy. he's the single greatest contributor to the cubs offense over the last half-decade and beyond. he made great strides in improving his defense and conditioning when he got here, which he has been lauded for by non-meatheads on many many occasions. it is absolutely, positively, [expletive] stupid to ask your most valuable player to run out routine fly balls when he has experienced significant leg-related injuries. it's not because he's lazy, it's because he's smart. anyone who thinks the complaints of fat, balding, white tribune employees concerning aramis ramirez are at all valid are just as mentally void as they are. and really, your example of the flip side is the criticism of jay cutler? the media came to the defense of jay cutler, it was players and fans that burned him at the stake. and good for them. i'm always glad when someone outs themselves as a total moron. it's always good to hear a couch-bound type-2 diabetic accusing a type-1 diabetic of laziness and wimpiness. I never called him lazy. I said Once you get caught on TV running an easy double into a single, because you decided to go into a home run trot, you are going to get criticism, and rightfully so. I fail to see how losing the extra base is playing "smart". I will agree that there is the perception that Aramis seems to get piled on more than most, but isn't it possible that it is due more towards his attitude toward the media and general overall disposition? Rather than his race? In regard to Cutler, he absolutely does deal with the same issues with the media. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=6017986 http://www.thesportssession.net/2137/nfl-players-call-jay-cutler-physically-mentally-weak-is-he-really-a-soft-football-player.html http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/14590417/does-cutler-have-seriously-injured-knee-or-weak-heart http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-sports-guru/2011/01/jay-cutlers-persona-grants-him-no-sympathy-for-mcl-tear/

Trick? Na, I posted facts. Your fact is the implication that a person can't be racist if they've ever said something nice about a minority. Your really stretching there.

And you've added nothing to the argument.

Except that they wanted Quad to "light a fire" under whom? Hint: usual targets. Are you serious? You think that criticism is undeserved?

As usual, that was better said in two paragraphs than I could manage in two pages. Except it doesn't add any insight or any sight any specifics.

Lazy hispanic. You can stop posting these examples as they really are not helping your argument. None of what you are posting is falling back on stereotypical criticisms of players performing well at the time. Yet others have posted quite a few examples of players like aramis who get vilified for complaints that fall back on typical stereotypes about their race. Posting the examples that you are simply shows a lack of understanding of what is being said instead of refuting the argument. I doubt that Kaplan or any other major figure in the Chicago media is overtly racist. However, they do make many characterizations about certain players that very much fall into stereotypes. Once again the problem is that many of the complaints about Aramis have been justified or at least amplified by actual games. Not running out basehits....loafing on balls he thought were home runs....not hustling...poor decision making...etc.... I will agree with you that I think in regards to Aramis, his flat affect appearance sometimes doesn't do him justice. But the criticism is not limited to Kaplan and it is hardly race based. I think if he were white and did the same thing, he would be jumped on just the same. For a good example just look at Jay Cutler. That guy has taken a ton of criticism about his will to win, laziness, wimpiness etc. I think you are stretching to call it a race problem.

You and Kaplan's Mug are completely missing the point; we're not saying white players aren't criticized at all. We're saying that in recent years non-white players on the Cubs have tended to be criticized in very, very similar ways regardless of their actual faults. Someone pointing out that Heilman sucked isn't the same as repeatedly stating that numerous non-white players are lazy and selfish. Except you can't point out any examples. Hence the problem.

As for "lazy white players," that's exactly the point. I believe truly lazy professional athletes are few and far between, so I wouldn't be able to name any. As for white players getting away with stuff, I've laid out these parallels repeatedly in the thread. Ron Santo was known for his emotional outbursts and unprofessional behavior such as taunting opponents and destroying equipment when he performed poorly. He once attacked his coach in the clubhouse, choking him and having to be pulled off him. He is a Cubs icon. Carlos Zambrano is known for his emotional outbursts and unprofessional behavior such as taunting opponents and destroying equipment when he performed poorly. He once sucker punched a teammate in the clubhouse. He is an unacceptable clubhouse cancer. Ryne Sandberg once quit on his team in the middle of a season in which he was performing poorly. He followed through with it. He is a beloved figure who many Cubs fans want to see as their next manager. Carlos Zambrano once said he was quitting on his team in the middle of a season in which he was performing poorly but tried to recant almost immediately. He is an unacceptable clubhouse cancer. Mark Grace had a well-earned reputation for nightly binge drinking for which he routinely brought along young teammates. He is a beloved Cub icon. Alfonso Soriano was ripped in the media for bringing Felix Pie along for partying. Carlos Silva is out of shape because he's lazy. Rod Beck is out of shape because he's awesome like that. Didn't Darwin Barney get seen turning his back to a pitch in the exact same inning Castro did? Or am I misremembering that one? Aramis Ramirez, Alfonso Soriano, Carlos Zambrano, Starlin Castro. You seem to make the point for me. Players that perform seem to be given a pass regardless of race. Sandberg realizing he was playing bad and quitting was a bad thing? If anything it was admirable that he realized he was hurting the team. If Zambrano had really retired, he would have been lauded. And calling Darwin Barney white is a new one on me. Do you know something that the rest of us don't?

I have a problem with hypocrisy. Have you looked in the mirror recently?

I can't believe you are adding fuel to this ridiculous line of attack. I know it is popular to attack Kaplan and call him racist, but it is pathetic that just because he calls out certain members of the club he is all of the sudden racist. Have you looked at the 40 man roster lately to see how many caucasians were on the roster? And on the big league team, they are definitely not in the majority. Out of the white guys on the roster, point out the ones that you believe are lazy or appear to have a poor work ethic? Wells? (maybe) As for an answer to your question, Hundley's work ethic was called into severe question. Farnsworth was another guy that took a lot of heat for partying too much and not being prepared for games. Kaplan piled on Prior quite a bit for being a wimp and lazy. More recently, Wells was picked on in the media for having a poor work ethic. But I guess that doesn't forward your story line. I'm pretty sure that Kaplan heaped praise on Lee during his period with the Cubs and I remember the night when Soriano was signed, how ecstatic he was the Cubs signed him. I think it is sad that he can't be free to criticism players without people questioning whether he is a racist or not. I asked a simple question whose answer could have been evidence for either side of the argument. Your question assumes racism. Even though it is not deserved I think this thread has shown many examples of "white" players that have been criticized.

Too easy: Sandberg: Never cheated. Sosa: He had that whole broken bat thing. Yep. There's always an explanation. There's always some reason why the white player is different than the minority player. But when you zoom out, the pattern is clear. Sure sounds like you have the problem with race.

I can't believe you are adding fuel to this ridiculous line of attack. I know it is popular to attack Kaplan and call him racist, but it is pathetic that just because he calls out certain members of the club he is all of the sudden racist. Have you looked at the 40 man roster lately to see how many caucasians were on the roster? And on the big league team, they are definitely not in the majority. Out of the white guys on the roster, point out the ones that you believe are lazy or appear to have a poor work ethic? Wells? (maybe) As for an answer to your question, Hundley's work ethic was called into severe question. Farnsworth was another guy that took a lot of heat for partying too much and not being prepared for games. Kaplan piled on Prior quite a bit for being a wimp and lazy. More recently, Wells was picked on in the media for having a poor work ethic. But I guess that doesn't forward your story line. He asked for three lazy white players in the last five years. You come up with one maybe. Now quick, how many white players who have been described as "scrappy gamers" in the last five years can you come up with? Again, nobody said that minority players were never criticized or that you can't criticize players. I'm simply pointing out two trends: 1) White players continually get away with, and are sometimes lauded for, virtually identical behavior to what minority players are criticized for. 2) The criticism of Hispanic players tends to fall into a very specific stereotype. Your attempt to dispute didn't address either of those points. It's just another long list of "some of the media's best friends are minorities!" 1) Your claims are phony though. You don't name one "white" player that is lazy or that gets away with identical behavior. Please tell us all who these lazy white players are. It is a false argument. 2) You seem to be the one stereotyping. i.e. Media criticizes player A, B, C for being perceived as lazy. They happen to be a certain race. So instead of looking at the specific players, you look at their race and assume that it is racism? Give me a break. Point out the specific players that Kaplan has criticized unfairly

I can't believe you are adding fuel to this ridiculous line of attack. I know it is popular to attack Kaplan and call him racist, but it is pathetic that just because he calls out certain members of the club he is all of the sudden racist. Have you looked at the 40 man roster lately to see how many caucasians were on the roster? And on the big league team, they are definitely not in the majority. Out of the white guys on the roster, point out the ones that you believe are lazy or appear to have a poor work ethic? Wells? (maybe) As for an answer to your question, Hundley's work ethic was called into severe question. Farnsworth was another guy that took a lot of heat for partying too much and not being prepared for games. Kaplan piled on Prior quite a bit for being a wimp and lazy. More recently, Wells was picked on in the media for having a poor work ethic. But I guess that doesn't forward your story line. I'm pretty sure that Kaplan heaped praise on Lee during his period with the Cubs and I remember the night when Soriano was signed, how ecstatic he was the Cubs signed him. I think it is sad that he can't be free to criticism players without people questioning whether he is a racist or not.

It is interesting that all of the articles point out that he may not even take the job if offered it. Hopefully his willingness to spend two days with the Cubs brass, indicates that his family is okay with a move.

Completely fair. The primary use of WAR is to be able to compare the general value of players across different roles and positions. Regarding WAR with a pitcher, you have to wonder how useful offensive WAR is. Last year Dontrelle Willis had a combined WAR that was equivalent of Zambrano, and I sure the hell wouldn't want him in the rotation. Personally I would much rather prefer a pitcher that was good at pitching. I'd take Willis over many of the pitchers who started games for the 2011 Cubs. Yeah, and I would take a kick in the shin over a kick in the groin.

Completely fair. The primary use of WAR is to be able to compare the general value of players across different roles and positions. Regarding WAR with a pitcher, you have to wonder how useful offensive WAR is. Last year Dontrelle Willis had a combined WAR that was equivalent of Zambrano, and I sure the hell wouldn't want him in the rotation. Personally I would much rather prefer a pitcher that was good at pitching.

Suspension or banned from the team? If he does something and they suspend him a couple days, I don't give a crap. If they are going to be idiots and ban him from the team again, that's a problem. Let's be realistic, if Zambrano stays and there is another incident they are not going to suspend him for a couple of days. Why? Zambrano's incidents have been a chronic issue for the team. If they do allow him to come back, I'm sure he will be kept on a very short lease with a zero tolerance type policy.

Suspension or banned from the team? If he does something and they suspend him a couple days, I don't give a crap. If they are going to be idiots and ban him from the team again, that's a problem. Let's be realistic, if Zambrano stays and there is another incident they are not going to suspend him for a couple of days.