17 Seconds

Alright, this ongoing argument is obviously annoying people, so this will be my last post to you. Do you not see theridiculously flawed and short minded "logic" you're using? Why do you insist that Roberts can't be used as a number 2 hitter? I feel like I'm talking to an infant. "Oh, because he's a LEADOFF hitter!". You have yet to name one thing that Roberts can do as a leadoff hitter that he can't do as a 2 hitter. You said it yourself, Roberts is designed to get on base. Is that not his goal as a number 2 hitter? You've got some bizarre concept of baseball in your mind that makes a leadoff hitter completely different than a number 2 hitter just because he has a specific name. It's like "no, a leadoff hitter can't possible bat 2nd! Then he wouldn't be a leadoff hitter and would be completely useless!" Do you really not see how incredibly foolish that is? That's like criticizing the Phillies choice to start Myers on opening day (to line up their rotation) by saying somthing like "Hamels as a number 2 starter!? But he's an ACE! A number 1 starter!! What's the point of even starting him if he's going to be a number 2 starter?! We might as well just trade him if he isn't our ACE!. That sounds ridiculous, but it's exactly what you're doing. "Leadoff hitter" is a spot in the lineup, not a position in the lineup. It's not like we're getting Roberts so he can play right field or something. I've yet to hear any examples of what Roberts can do in the leadoff spot that he can't so in the 2 hole. Roberts is every bit as valuable in the 2 spot as he is in the leadoff spot. Would he hit 2nd? I really don't know for sure, but neither do you. Stop it with this ridiculous and warped logic. Ok, I'm done. I promise this time. Everytime I see a post from this guy I can't resist, but I won't be reading them anymore. I apologize to everyone on this board. You're doing the exact same thing with Soriano! HE CAN'T HIT ANYWHERE BUT LEADOFF OR THE EARTH WILL IMPLODE! As you like to say...just STOP it. Come on man, those 2 things are completely different. There's a reason why I think Soriano shouldn't hit anywhere other than leadoff: because his numbers will drop. Whether or not his numbers will drop is debatable, but at least that has reasoning. That is completely different than saying Roberts should only bat leadoff and never second. Where is the reasoning behind that? There is none. It's because he holds the title "leadoff hitter". Ugh, again, please read what I have been saying. I never said Roberts can't have a .385 obp. We've been over this. I was saying I don't think it's an accurate statement to say "Roberts will have a .385 obp". If he said "Roberts could have a .385 obp" I would have never said anything. Like I said in another post that you apparently didn't read, Derrek Lee could hit 46 home runs again this season, but I don't think it's a fair statement to say "Derrek Lee will have 46 home runs this year". Let's just drop this because it really doesn't matter and people clearly aren't getting what I said. Again, that's a very poor comparison. There is reasoning behind the Soriano argument, and even evidence. Like I said before, it's debatable, but at least there is a good argument to be made. Do you have any reasoning or evidence to say the Roberts can't hit 2nd? No. There is none. It;s like saying "Why did the Tigers get Miguel Cabrera? He might not be able to hit in the AL!". So, that statement is true, but there is no evidence or reasoning that makes you think he might not be able to hit in the AL, so it's a silly statement. The reason people don't like moving Soriano down is because there is strong logic and history of it. Roberts has neither. Please, stop with these baseless comparisons. Anyways, let's just drop all of this. I'm sick of arguing.

this other poster thinks Roberts' OBP could be is just solidifying his status as unreasonable/unreadable. Again, he never said could, or I wouldn't have said anything. He said would. There's a difference. Yep. There's indeed a difference. It's about 10% as large as you're making it out to be, but it's there. I agree I made too big of a deal out of it and I shouldn't have even said anything. I just don't like it when people try to validate going after players because of things like that. It's along the same lines as "The Rangers want Murton and Ceda/Veal for Marlon Byrd? Give it to them, Byrd will hit .310!" or "Let's get Aubrey Huff, when he gets a change of scenery he'll hit like he did from 02-04!" Sure, it's fine to "guesstimate" those things, but be reasonable. I don't think expecting Roberts to get on base at a .385 clip next season is reasonable. Could it happen? Sure, but Lee could also hit 46 home runs again and I don't go around saying things like "Our offense will be much better next season....Lee will hit 46 home runs!"

this other poster thinks Roberts' OBP could be is just solidifying his status as unreasonable/unreadable. Again, he never said could, or I wouldn't have said anything. He said would. There's a difference.

Alright, this ongoing argument is obviously annoying people, so this will be my last post to you. Do you not see theridiculously flawed and short minded "logic" you're using? Why do you insist that Roberts can't be used as a number 2 hitter? I feel like I'm talking to an infant. "Oh, because he's a LEADOFF hitter!". You have yet to name one thing that Roberts can do as a leadoff hitter that he can't do as a 2 hitter. You said it yourself, Roberts is designed to get on base. Is that not his goal as a number 2 hitter? You've got some bizarre concept of baseball in your mind that makes a leadoff hitter completely different than a number 2 hitter just because he has a specific name. It's like "no, a leadoff hitter can't possible bat 2nd! Then he wouldn't be a leadoff hitter and would be completely useless!" Do you really not see how incredibly foolish that is? That's like criticizing the Phillies choice to start Myers on opening day (to line up their rotation) by saying somthing like "Hamels as a number 2 starter!? But he's an ACE! A number 1 starter!! What's the point of even starting him if he's going to be a number 2 starter?! We might as well just trade him if he isn't our ACE!. That sounds ridiculous, but it's exactly what you're doing. "Leadoff hitter" is a spot in the lineup, not a position in the lineup. It's not like we're getting Roberts so he can play right field or something. I've yet to hear any examples of what Roberts can do in the leadoff spot that he can't so in the 2 hole. Roberts is every bit as valuable in the 2 spot as he is in the leadoff spot. Would he hit 2nd? I really don't know for sure, but neither do you. Stop it with this ridiculous and warped logic. Ok, I'm done. I promise this time. Everytime I see a post from this guy I can't resist, but I won't be reading them anymore. I apologize to everyone on this board.

Why are you turning this into another Soriano argument? We've been through that over and over again. I said nothing about Soriano. You've yet to explain why all of Robets strengths as a leadoff hitter can't also be utilized as a number 2 hitter. "OMG! He's a leadoff hitter! He has to leadoff!". Extremely weak logic. There is nothing that Roberts brings to the table as a leadoff hitter that he also doesn't bring to the table as a number 2 hitter. Nothing. By the way, Lou talked today about how good Soriano's legs look/feel and that he's be running, so there goes that small argumnet that you made. I'd be willing to bet that this would be the lineup with Roberts. Soriano Roberts Lee Ramirez Fukudome Soto Pie Theriot Lefties split up, blah blah. However, I'm reasonable enough to understand that nobody knows for sure what the lineup would be, so I'm not going to say ridiculous things like "you're an idiot if you think Roberts lead off", or make up lies such as "Lou is on record as saying Roberts would bat second." I'll leave that nonsense to you. Like I said, you were on ignore but I wasn't logged in so it didn't block the ridiculous .385 post. I decided that was too hilarious to not post on. Now I realize I should have left you on ignore like everyone else since you still are spewin the same garbage over and over again. Back to ignore you go.

He didn't say "it's a possibility" though. He said with certainty that it would happen if he was on the Cubs, which is silly. Anyways, I'd put money on him never putting up 2005 numbers again. Also, I still say that Lou would probably bat Roberts 2nd if he came here. Wrigley23, however, will stick to his lie that Lou has gone on the record saying otherwise.

Did you ignore the part where I said that a better lineup isn't going to have a big effect on Roberts on base numbers? I can't believe that you don't see a problem with a guy stating that Roberts will have a .385 OBP next season. Does anyone want to make a bet that Roberts doesn't have a .385 OBP next season?

Stop it with these fallacies. The Orioles scored more runs than the Cubs last season. i would sure hope so. having a dh makes scoring runs easier than having guys like ted lilly and rich hill at the plate. How they scored the runs is irrelevant to this conversation.

This discussion is making my brain hurt. Hey guys, Aaron Rowand WILL hit 30 home runs next season. J.D. Drew WILL hit 30 home runs next season. Eric Byrnes WILL hit .300 this season. Trust me guys, they will. Mark it down. No question about it.

Stop it with these fallacies. The Orioles scored more runs than the Cubs last season. That's not even the point though. Stop acting like a better lineup suddenly turns good players into super human players. Anyways, why is his OBP going to go up so much because of protection? Wouldn't that mean guys will be throwing more strikes to him? Are you really expecting the dude to hit .320 or something like that? This is similar to people who are convinced that Coco Crisp would return to his 2004/2005 form if he batted second with us just because Lee would be protecting him.

Hahaha. I'm glad that I wasn't logged in so I was able to see this gem. I don't see what's so crazy about that. His OBP was .377 last year. He's stating with certainty that Roberts will reach an OBP that he has only reached once. That's about 35 points above his career average, and Roberts has been over .350 only twice in his career. It's similar to saying Soriano is a shoo-in for a .360 OBP. Oh, I guess I read it differently. I don't expect him to put up those numbers either. I just wouldn't be shocked if he did. I'd say he's more likely to put up numbers similar to 2006 than his never-going-to-happen-again 2005. If I had to gess, I'd say he's around .360-.365 next season.

Hahaha. I'm glad that I wasn't logged in so I was able to see this gem. I don't see what's so crazy about that. His OBP was .377 last year. He's stating with certainty that Roberts will reach an OBP that he has only reached once. That's about 35 points above his career average, and Roberts has been over .350 only twice in his career. It's similar to saying Soriano is a shoo-in for a .360 OBP. Thank you. The part that bothered me most was the fact that he didn't even say ".385 is a real possibility" (which I also would have found silly, by the way). He straight up said that Roberts would have a .385 on base percentage, which is ridiculous.

Hahaha. I'm glad that I wasn't logged in so I was able to see this gem. I don't see what's so crazy about that. His OBP was .377 last year. You really don't see anything wrong with expecting him to have a .385 obp next season? Really?

Hahaha. I'm glad that I wasn't logged in so I was able to see this gem.

I don't want to open up the "clutchiness" argument again, but isn't it more likely that he sees pitches that he is less comfortable with in RBI positions rather than developing some sort of mental block with runners on? It has been widely discussed that as a dead fastball hitter, keeping him in the leadoff spot works because that is precisely where he would see the most of those pitches. With people on base, and very little protection behind him, he sees pitches that he is generally less able to handle. I don't buy that it has anything to do with his psychological fortitude in clutch situations. That all sounds like the same thing to me. It doesn't really matter why he doesn't hit well in those situations anyways.

Trust me, I hate the Soriano contract and I can't stand the fact that he has to leadoff to produce, but seeing Soriano go .265/.315/.500 with 100 rbi's wouldn't make me feel any better about it. It would make me feel worse.

Soriano's numbers do not inherently drop just by not leading off. Soriano's numbers do not inherently drop just by not leading off. Don't even bother. He's 100% convinced that it's fact. The fact that Soriano is not a good hitter in terms of clutch statistics IS fact. Soriano is a poor hitter with runners on on. Soriano is even more of a poor hitter with runners in scoring position. So, where would he get by far the largest amount of these types of at-bats (in which he struggles so much). Leading off? Nope. Middle of the order? Absolutely. I seriously don't know why this is so hard to understand. It has nothing to do with the 2004 and 2005 seasons (although those are good indicators of a problem as well). It has everything to do with the fact that Soriano is a poor hitter with guys on base. I feel like you guys are completely ignoring logic because you can't fathom the fact that we gave ridiculous contract to a batter that can't perform where he's logically be most valuable. Whether we like it or not, Soriano is paid for and is on this team. Forcing him into being something he's not just to get a few extra RBI's (while taking a hit to all of his other stats) just because you're too stubborn to realize what kind of hitter he is sounds silly to me.

I love how that BP article on Soriano completely neglets to acknowledge the concept of Soriano's numbers dropping while not leading off. Did wrigley23 write that article or something?

Wait, TBS is carrying games that don't involve the Braves this season?

I just don't want Theriot near the top. Me neither.

Link?

With what we have right now, I think this is probably the best lineup. Soriano Derosa Lee Ramirez Fukudome Soto Pie Theriot I don't really take too much stock in the l-r-l-r stuff. That said, I don't really like our lineup that much. We don't really have a great choice for the 2 hole without putting Fukudome there, and the back end up the lineup look really week. I still think the lineup would have looked 10x better with Renteria. Soriano Renteria Lee Ramirez Fukudome Derosa Soto Pie I think that lineup looks pretty good.

The only problem I have with Fukudome batting 2nd is that we won't really have a number 5 hitter. I like Derosa but I don't really think he's an adequate number 5 hitter. Man, this lineup would have looked so much better if we would have gone after Renteria.

Orel is good.

You're right.