baseballfan50

That's the way it should be, I think. How he's treated also depends on how well he does as a hitting coach.

At least he was honest. That was pretty good. He seemed serious, too.

Why not? He can't change what happened in the past, and he seems genuinely sorry. I would be more embarrassed if the fans had booed him, because there's no reason to boo a guy for something he did 10 years ago that 75% of baseball was doing anyway. That's like booing players who have done amphetamines. You'd be booing most of them. I could understand booing if he tried to justify what he did. But he came clean (finally) and sincerely apologized. As far as the Maris family, they are obviously conflicted. http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/D12-Maris-family-forgives-McGwire-but-won-t-le?urn=mlb,213064

More friendly? Have you spent any appreciable time in Central Illinois? It's not open warfare in the streets, but you can draw a line from about Des Moines to Terra Haute, and a hundred miles on either side of that line is a region of fairly fierce partisanship for one team or the other. My daughter is seven years old and doesn't really watch much baseball, but she knows for every kid in her class whether they come from a Cubs family or a Cards family. George Will has written quite a bit about growing up a Cubs fan in Champaign, Illinois and having to deal with Cardinal fans. Let me clarify, from my experience the Cardinals-Cubs rivalry is not vicious as Yankees-Red Sox. East Coast love of violence, foul behavior, cursing and hatred of all other teams is the norm. Back in the 90's I went to a Blackhawks/Flyers game at the old Spectrum on a early season Tuesday night. I thought I'd be safe since it was a weeknight and the teams aren't rivals: but I'd swear half the crowd is "likes to fight" guy. I'm still amazed I got out of the arena alive. Last year at Scottrade Center a Red Wings fan was apparently trying to pick a fight, so a Blues fan pulled his jersey over his head and threw it into the lower bowl of the arena. But the viciousness of some of the East Coast rivalries is well-known, especially Yankees vs. Red Sox.

It's not just a Cubs thing. http://pr-usa.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=366669&Itemid=34 The Cardinals are doing it, too. Boston, too, I believe.

I'm not a Cub fan, but I do know that the second series of the year is a little early to give up, for any team. I know it's frustrating to give up leads and play poorly, but it is the beginning of April. Every team has 6 more months of games to play. Obviously I'm not rooting for the Cubs, but it's early. You never know what might happen as the weeks progress. I think the Cardinals probably have the best chance in the division (at least I hope so), but I do think the Cubs have some talent on their ballclub. And Lou is a pretty good manager. I look forward to some good competition in the NL Central this season. And I look forward to seeing what each of the six teams brings to the table. You're not supposed to be giving up in April (although I know that it's difficult not to be a bit discouraged). :P

Probably not the only stadium something like that has happened in. Why can't people seem to wait until they are in a private place? and it's as much his fault as hers. Still, it's always puzzled me that some people seem to have no self-respect or sense of decency.

More friendly? Have you spent any appreciable time in Central Illinois? It's not open warfare in the streets, but you can draw a line from about Des Moines to Terra Haute, and a hundred miles on either side of that line is a region of fairly fierce partisanship for one team or the other. My daughter is seven years old and doesn't really watch much baseball, but she knows for every kid in her class whether they come from a Cubs family or a Cards family. George Will has written quite a bit about growing up a Cubs fan in Champaign, Illinois and having to deal with Cardinal fans. Let me clarify, from my experience the Cardinals-Cubs rivalry is not vicious as Yankees-Red Sox.

If Carpenter had done poorly, I could see the reasoning that he was a sore loser. But he pitched fine. Besides, Carpenter is not a Milton Bradley type of player. Carp rarely complains to the media about anything. So I would think he would know better than most of us if the baseballs there were too slick. And the Brewers untucking their jerseys is annoying. Sorry.

I don't think the steroids era is quite the same as Pearl Harbor or 9/11. Thousands of people died in those horrible acts. The steroid era was bad, and it broke the hearts of a lot of people, but it was not Pearl Harbor or 9/11. And McGwire's hardly the only one who did steroids. And, even if they don't want to admit, most baseball fans who remember the 1998 race (especially Cubs and Cardinals fans) probably enjoyed it at the time. Besides, players in the '80s snorted coke, and players of all decades have abused amphetamines. Drug abuse and cheating are hardly anything new in baseball.

He's a hitting coach, so I doubt the fans will even see him. I can't say for sure about the media, though. I think most people have gotten over it. He did something horrible, he sincerely apologized, he is not making money off of it (though his brother is trying to). Time to move on from the steroid era, in my opinion.

The Royals-Cards rivalry is, in a sense, like the White Sox-Cubs rivalry. If the White Sox had been baseball-irrelevant the last 15 years and were finishing last in their division 9 times out of 10, maybe. Yeah, but the 85 WS still rubs many Cardinal fans the wrong way. Much of the complaint was with Don Dekinger. And even that has calmed down since 2006.

This sounds dubious. Any Cardinals fans I've ran into in St. Louis were not rednecks. Alcoholics, maybe, but you have to go west until you find redneck Cardinals fans. And I highly doubt those people have the money to just jet off to Wrigley. They have to hold up signs calling people "morans." have you never been to south county? Bingo. Perhaps the rednecks don't travel north much, but they are in full display here. I don't even like to go to games here anymore because it's just full of dumbasses. TBBFIA my ass. In my experience, Cards fans care much more about the rivalry than we do. It goes hand-in-hand with the general inferiority complex they have about Chicago, similar to what KC has with St. Louis. I was driving through Soulard the other day (a neighborhood in St. Louis) and saw a "Cubs suck" sticker on a stop sign. Really? Come on. You can go to any Cards game here, regardless of the opponent, and you'll see vendors selling shirts with billy goats on them and various other "Cubs suck" shirts. I'm not saying it's not a rivalry for us too, cuz it is. But I guess because there is less going on here or because it's something that makes them feel good about themselves, they dwell on the Cubs an awful lot. But to be that wrapped up with a team that hasn't won [expletive] in forever, it's stupid. From my experience, St. Louisans find harping on the Cubs funny, that's why St. Louisans do it. And St. Louisans generally are tired of always being compared to Chicago, just like Chicagoans are tired of being compared to New York. There probably is an inferiority complex, but it's from decades of being compared to Chicago, when St. Louis is a fraction of the size. And, from what I've heard and read, suburban St. Louisans love to say bad things about the city. I don't know why, since it (in my opinion) prohibits the growth of the entire area. If you've ever read a St. Louis Post-Dispatch article's comments, you'll see plenty of St. Louisans that hate the city, for some reason. But St. Louis city's population seems to have stabilized, and the suburbanites generally go to the city for entertainment (which further confuses me as to why they hate the city that they depend on). And you probably will find "rednecks" at Cardinal games, because the Cardinals territory reaches to Oklahoma, Arkansas, across Missouri, into Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Tennessee, Indiana, Ohio. Actually, there are probably quite a few redneck Cubs fans too, they just can't afford tickets. I think much of the differences in the fanbases also comes from differences in culture. Much of Cardinals territory has southern influences, and much of it is rural. Whereas Chicago is obviously very urban, and you also have Milwaukee right there. And the Cubs fanbase probably has more solidly Midwestern fans. If you travel very far outside of St. Louis, in pretty much any direction except north, you will find more country music, fourwheelers, and hunting, which is probably somewhat of a southern trait, and a rural trait. I think St. Louisans expect to get compared to Chicago, so they pick on the Cubs, Chicago's iconic team. That, and the teams have been playing against each other since 1882. Although, if it were all about hating Chicago, Cards fans would hate the White Sox. From my experience, Cardinals and White Sox fans get along pretty well. St. Louis feels like they are being unfairly compared to Chicago, and Sox fans feels like they are oppressed by the Cubs. The Sox and the Cardinals both hate the Cubs. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, especially when they never play each other. Honestly I'm kind of surprised that lesson hasn't mentioned Cardstalk yet. Dear Lesson, Cubs/Cards will continue to be the biggest rivalry thirty miles west of the Atlantic. I'm not sure why you would possibly think it wouldnt be. Are you trying to polarize yourself against yet another message board community? Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica. Cards talk has some good posters, but it is called the Asylum for a reason. People tend to post all kinds of topics, and sometimes gut reactions. Keep in mind, any internet forum is bound to bring out all kinds of people. And people tend to be more candid than they would face-to-face. I don't really care about the Mets. They were the Cardinals rival in my parents' generation, but they are not in the same division as the Cardinals anymore. If the Cubs won the World Series, I would get over it. I wouldn't like it, but it's not like it would be the end of the world. I don't want to sound like a troll, but it wouldn't bother me that much because we have been more successful over the history of the two teams. If the Cardinals aren't in the postseason, I don't care that much. But if the Cubs or Yankees or Red Sox get knocked out of the postseason, I won't lose any sleep over it.

I think the Cubs are still the Cardinals #1 rivalry, but it's somewhat more friendly than other rivalries. And the Cardinals have recently had a rivalry with the Astros (who were more of a threat for a while). We still have a rivalry with the Brewers, I think. The Brewers are mostly annoying. And the rivalry with the Royals is more of a once-a-year thing. Most Cardinals' fans don't take the Royals seriously, and haven't since the '80s. I have noticed a superiority complex in Chicagoans (about their city), but I think they feel that way about any city except New York or LA. I have nothing against the city of Chicago. I have never been there. I don't think it's necessarily a better city, though. It's just bigger. And not everybody wants to live in a city that size.

Yeah, nobody was using PED's before the 80's. Agreed. What do you call amphetamines and cocaine? I think players who write these scathing opinions of McGwire need to look at themselves and their colleagues. Jenkins himself did cocaine and marijuana. I'm sure most players in the 1980s then. What about amphetamines? They have been around a long time. I think the only players who can honestly chide any of them are the ones who never cheated and never took drugs. That's very few of them. Steroids weren't right, but it's not like cheating and drugs are new in baseball.

To me, cheating is cheating. Steroids were wrong. So were amphetamines, cocaine (keeps you awake and alert), as well as doctoring baseballs, corking bats, and all the other ways of cheating. Fergie Jenkins recently lambasted McGwire for using steroids. Jenkins was once caught with cocaine, marijuana, and hashish, which is okay, using his reasoning. I think many former players are throwing stones from inside their glass houses (excuse the cliche). Unless your past is spotless, don't be pointing out others' mistakes, in my opinion.

I always find troughs a bit disgusting and unsanitary. Keeping the troughs there doesn't really seem like a renovation.

I don't really care if the Cubs get it or not, but the Cubs last hosted an All-Star game in 1990. The Cardinals hosted in 2009 for the first time since 1966. Yankee Stadium hosted in 2008, for the first time since 1977. The Last time each team has hosted an All-Star Game http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_All-Star_Game_venues#Ballparks_that_have_hosted_more_than_one_All-Star_Game I'm not saying you guys shouldn't get the All-Star game, but unless the owners plan to build a new stadium (like Steinbrenner did), the Cubs may not jump ahead of anybody. Teams that have waited the longest # New York Mets, 1964 # Kansas City Royals, 1973 # Los Angeles Dodgers, 1980 # Washington Nationals, 1982 (as Montreal Expos – the last All-Star Game held in Washington, DC was in 1969, hosted by the present-day Texas Rangers franchise) # Minnesota Twins, 1985 # Oakland Athletics, 1987 # Cincinnati Reds, 1988 # Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, 1989 (scheduled to host in 2010) # Chicago Cubs, 1990 And Chicago is second in number of All-Star games hosted all time. And the White Sox hosted the All-Star game in 2003. The Mets are hosting it in 2013. http://www.nj.com/mets/index.ssf/2009/07/new_york_mets_citi_field_to_ho.html And the Royals in 2012 http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/1439/k-c-set-to-host-2012-all-star-game That leaves the Dodgers, Nationals, Twins, A's, Reds, and Angels ahead of you (as far as when they last hosted the All-Star Game). 2014 will probably be an AL year anyway. And the Twins have bid for 2014. http://twincities.bizjournals.com/twincities/stories/2008/09/08/daily27.html I'd say let go of the idea for 2014 because a) the Twins are opening a new ballpark and b) it will be an AL year, unless the Cubs do something drastic (like plan to build a new stadium. I'm just saying, I wouldn't print the All-Star game tickets yet. There's a few teams that could be ahead of the Cubs.

I'm not sure if Stan is more revered in St. Louis than Ted Williams was in Boston. But, St. Louis obviously is a baseball town. Although, I'd read that when Shanahan was at his peak in popularity as a Blue, there were a record number of boys born in St. Louis named Brendan.

I know he's a Cardinal, but it's hard to not acknowledge the great career of Stan the Man. The Cards had planned more of a celebration of him at the All-Star Game, but Obama caused that to be cut short. Anyway, here's a good article about Stan: http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/berniemiklasz/story/831394F54D2647AC8625767500118E07?OpenDocument Nice pictures here, too. http://www.thepost-dispatchstore.com/Musial_Pujols_Poster_p/16560.htm http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/pictures/files/2009/04/clea0268.jpg http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/pictures/files/2009/04/clea0280.jpg http://thebosque.us/images/04062009.jpg Nice that there are still some baseball greats around. Musial seems to be everything that is right with baseball. I've never met him. From what I've heard, it's hard to find a kinder, gentler person. Red Schoendienst, who's uniform number 2 is retired with the Cardinals (even though he's still wearing it), is 87. He's currently a Cardinals coach. He's been to Spring Training for something like 65 years I think. Obviously there are some Cubs greats that are still around, but overall, I don't know if Stan gets enough credit from baseball fans.

It looks like a nice ballpark overall. That place where the seats overhang the field could cause some problems, though, and some of the seats are obstructed. Overall looks like a nice field, albeit a chilly one.

STLToday had a poll, and 80% of Cardinals fans said they didn't care about the steroid issue with McGwire, if that means anything. http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/polla.nsf/Result?Readform&id=7193781E340A60458625765B000F9C49 But the STLToday board is in argument right now. Still, most there seem to not care about the steroid thing.

Cheating in baseball, while not excusable, is nothing new. And there are probably more players that never got caught. I just think everyone is using a few players as their objects of hate (McGwire, Canseco, Bonds), when so many more players did it and just didn't get caught. Some players cheated more or longer than others. But players have cheated since baseball began. I hate steroid use, too, but that's in the past. If McGwire is a good hitting coach (we'll see), I don't care what he did or didn't do.

Some do. I know plenty of people who are "disgusted" by the hiring and think that all of the steroid-era players should be blacklisted from getting coaching jobs. I'm not endorsing this viewpoint, but it's out there. A few Cardinals forums are nuthouses right now, but one forum in particular is always a nuthouse. Although this is St. Louis, not New York. The media scrutiny may not be that bad. I don't really see why hiring McGwire is such a big deal.

McGwire cheated. So did a lot of players. I can't hold it against him too much. Most of us would have been tempted to cheat in those circumstances. If he is effective as a hitting coach, I don't mind so much about his past. Sure, there will be steroid jokes made. But I don't think McGwire will be handing out needles in the clubhouse. Players would get caught. The players should be smart enough to not do steroids now because they will get caught.