CubsWin

Both will cost about the same in money and will produce similar numbers but only one will cost the Cubs a lot in players. Even though Abreu is three years younger, I still think Giles' production will be similar to Abreu's over the next several seasons. This one shouldn't be as close as it is. Giles...easily. And, if both were an option, I'd pick it. We aren't discussing what we think will happen, we're discussing what our plan of attack should be. If there is a way for the Cubs to acquire Abreu by trading Murton and others without breaking the bank (Pie), I'd do it in a heartbeat. Wouldn't you? Giles in left, Patterson in center and Abreu in right. Let Patterson bat 8th until he figures it out. And if he never does, who cares?

Both will cost about the same in money and will produce similar numbers but only one will cost the Cubs a lot in players. Even though Abreu is three years younger, I still think Giles' production will be similar to Abreu's over the next several seasons. This one shouldn't be as close as it is. Giles...easily. And, if both were an option, I'd pick it. We aren't discussing what we think will happen, we're discussing what our plan of attack should be. If there is a way for the Cubs to acquire Abreu by trading Murton and others without breaking the bank (Pie), I'd do it in a heartbeat. Wouldn't you? Giles in left, Patterson in center and Abreu in right. Let Patterson bat 8th until he figures it out. And if he never does, who cares?

I agree and have been saying as much for a while now. Sometimes, a fan's frustration can get the better of him/her, and they reach the point of hating a team's manager. Once you cross that line, you loose all objectivity and start seeing evidence of that manager's incompetence even where there isn't any. I feel that has happened quite a bit in some of the Dusty Baker threads on this board. I have endeavored to maintain my objectivity and have defended Baker when I saw that he was being wrongly and needlessly attacked. But I have never wavered from my belief that Baker should be fired based on his performance alone. What are you waiting for, Jim? Trammel, McKeon and Tracy have all been fired. Now is the perfect time.

How realistic are we being with some of these wish lists? I mean I realize that its a wish list, but its not like Hendry is actually a genie. To my understanding the Cubs have about 30-35 million to spend on big FA signings with some left over to fill out the pen and bench. With that money, I am wishing for the Cubs to land... Giles - 11 million Millwood - 8 million Nomar - 5 million plus incentives Lofton - 2.5 million Walker - 2.5 million (option picked up) That's 29 million right there. With what ever margin is left over, spend it on the best reliever you can get. Hoops or anyone, are my numbers accurate? I want my wishlist to be firmly grounded in reality. If they're off, I've got to start all over. :wink: If those numbers are correct, then the Cubs would look something like this next year: Lofton Nomar Giles Lee Ramirez Walker Murton Barrett Prior Zambrano Millwood Maddux Wood or Williams Dempster The best FA reliever the Cubs can afford Wood or Williams Williamson Ohman Novoa Wuertz/Van Buren/Would there be enough $ left for Rusch? Blanco Hairston Cedeno Patterson? ?

I've given in to that type of thinking too. Our window is closing and we have to do what we have to do to get the big dog in the OF. No more Burnies, thank you. I'd also like to go cheap at SS(Cedeno) and LF(Murton) and get an expensive SP(Burnett/Millwood). We'd be on everyone's short list for the WS in 2006 if we followed this plan. I agree wholeheartedly with this plan, though, depending on how much Giles and Millwood wind up costing, the Cubs may not have to go cheap at SS, at least not league minimum cheap. They may still be able to afford Nomar. His bat would be a huge addition to the Cubs chances of winning it all.

I would have Marmol quite a bit higher, Marshall maybe one or two slots higher and possibly Pawelek in the top 10, though, I haven't really seen enough of him yet. Though, an arguement could be made on his age alone.

Wow, two headcases for the price of...two.

Abreu will cost as much as Giles in terms of contract, plus the top prospects we'd have to give up, since Philly isn't going to just give him away. Giles is the logical choice. The 2 players will put up similar numbers, are a similar age, but only one costs both money and prospects. We can ill afford to give up any top players. Thus, just spend the money and sign Giles. That's precisely why I voted for Giles.

Yeah, I'm fine with leaving 2B alone, too. Its just that the Cubs need OBP and Castillo provides it, that and a Gold Glove. But, I'm fine with Walker if the Cubs can land Giles and someone to play CF. Personally, my choice would be Kenny Lofton, with Hairston facing lefties and possibly Patterson still in the picture somewhere. I don't think it is likely at all that they will get both Giles and Damon. I see Damon sticking on the east coast, plus the Cubs won't want to block Pie. It is more likely that they will get one or the other but not both. And then there is the good possibility that they will get neither and have to get creative in a trade or something. This should be interesting.

Okay, so there is only one person in all of baseball that you would want more than Brian Giles. Good. And I agree, that Giles is likely more "getable". Manny may be on the block, but the Cubs don't have the players to trade for him. Are you gonna trade DLee to get Manny? And as far as the purpose of our discussion, which is RF, Manny cannot play RF by any stretch of the imagination. So, to get back on topic, is there any other RFer who is "getable" that is better than Brian Giles?

If we're making a public record I'll say I'd be disgusted by that OF. Basically you are very likely getting 3 sub 800 OPS, and quite possibly getting no more than a 750/650/790. That's awful, and completely unacceptable. For the record, I'm with goony. Murton equals or betters Huff and Giles blows away Ibanez. I mean its not even close. When you add in the fact that Huff and Ibanez will likely be paid about the same as Giles and Murton (if you are saving anything by going with Huff/Ibanez, it won't be much), it makes even less sense. Then you throw in the players the Cubs would have to trade away to get Huff and Ibanez, one of them would likely be Murton, it makes even less sense. This is a terrible idea. And if the Cubs go into the '06 season with an outfield of Huff, Patterson and Ibanez, they won't make the playoffs again next year.

Oh I totally agree with you, the Phillies would be fools to trade him off, especially to "shake things up" like phillyBurbs.com was alluding to. However, IF the Phillies front office were shopping him, you've got to take a look at what they want. The only salary dumping they'll be doing is Thome, and I just don't see how they can pull it off. Yeah, I agree. Abreu would be an incredible acquisition but I just can't see a reason why the Phillies would be willing to deal him. However, if the Cubs can lure Giles, get Lofton to keep CF warm until Pie is ready and acquire a 2B who can lead off like Castillo, their offense will be in really good shape. Question is, can they do all that? Heck, can they do any of that? I could see the Phillies shopping Aberu if the other team would take Thome as well. Yeah, but they are still going to want a heck of a lot in return. And I mean a heck of a lot. That's like trading DLee to someone if they would agree to take Maddux, too.

Only if Furcal's OBP goes up from his 2005 figures.. Who's better and available? Some might say a certain backwards Ramon. The Cubs have top of the order options, like Nomar & Murton. Hendry just needs to acquire guys that force Baker to put someone like Murton in the 2 hole. Also, great obp @ the top of the order isn't essential. Anaheim, Houston, the White Sox and the Cardinals wouldn't be in the playoffs, if it was. (Yes Eckstein's obp is .364, but he had a great Sept. St. Louis had already run away w/ the division by then). True, there are many ways to skin a cat (or get into the playoffs), but just because high OBP in the lead-off spot isn't essential or the only way to win, doesn't mean that having a lead-off hitter with a high OBP isn't the best and smartest way to go. It is. And it also happens to be one of the Cubs greatest needs. No doubt having a great lead off man would greatly benefit this team, and I'd love to have Damon, but gotta be realistic. There's a very slim chance the Cubs get Damon, and the Yankees won't be trading away Jetah. If Castillo's available, Lowell's probably coming w/ him and it may be difficult to spin him to another team. If ARam wasn't a Cub, I wouldn't mind Lowell. He's had one down year. His ops was good in 03 and 04. Furcal's obp is alright for leadoff, but his speed makes him one of the better leadoff men. Unfortunately, there's no math formula to "prove" how much speed benefits the 2-3-4 hitters. I much prefer Furcal @ SS over Nomar, who's likely to get hurt and who can't field anymore. Why are the only options for lead off Damon, Castillo or Furcal? Why not Lofton or Walker or even Murton? I agree that Furcal would be great to have at SS for the next 4-5 years and he would be an alright lead off man. I just believe that the Cubs can do better. I believe Cedeno can put up numbers in the neighborhood of what Furcal can. Maybe not in his rookie season, but 1-2 years down the road. I also believe that it may not be possible to sign both Furcal and Brian Giles. There isn't any one single player the Cubs can get who will impact the Cubs ability to score runs more than Brian Giles. Given the Cubs other needs (starter, CF, bullpen, etc.), we may have to choose between Giles and Furcal. For me, its not even close. Its Giles all the way. Going after him first and foremost and going after him aggressively is the better plan. If he shuns the Cubs advances, then the Cubs will have to go to plan B, and I'm not even sure Furcal is the best way to go for plan B, yet.

Why would Lofton have to be a full time player with the Cubs when they have Hairston on the bench and possibly Patterson as well? Lofton could face all the righties like he did this season in Philly. Have you looked at his numbers from this year? I'll take that leading off. Being one year older doesn't mean that much when you put up numbers like that the year before. And not signing Giles because we weren't willing to go as high as 12 million would be a mistake. It would likely cost the Cubs a golden opportunity at winning a World Series. Remember the World Series? I understand the desire to trade for an OFer, but who do the Cubs have to deal that is going to bring in someone as good as Brian Giles? The Cubs have the money. They better spend it and spend it wisely. And that means get the best player available. Of all the RFers in the majors, Giles posted the 2nd highest OPS this year behind only Vlad Guerrero. You could make the argument that Giles was the best RFer in the National League this season. Who else are you going to trade for that will cost less money but produce better than Brian Giles will?

Here are some other numbers from Derrek's season. Pretty impressive.

Only if Furcal's OBP goes up from his 2005 figures.. Who's better and available? Some might say a certain backwards Ramon. The Cubs have top of the order options, like Nomar & Murton. Hendry just needs to acquire guys that force Baker to put someone like Murton in the 2 hole. Also, great obp @ the top of the order isn't essential. Anaheim, Houston, the White Sox and the Cardinals wouldn't be in the playoffs, if it was. (Yes Eckstein's obp is .364, but he had a great Sept. St. Louis had already run away w/ the division by then). True, there are many ways to skin a cat (or get into the playoffs), but just because high OBP in the lead-off spot isn't essential or the only way to win, doesn't mean that having a lead-off hitter with a high OBP isn't the best and smartest way to go. It is. And it also happens to be one of the Cubs greatest needs.

Not since Bill Buckner did it 25 years ago, has a Cub won the NL batting title. He finished the year batting .335, the highest in the majors. Practically from wire to wire, Derrek Lee lead the National League, heck the Major Leagues in batting average this year. Let's give it up to DLee for having such a stellar season. =D> =D> =D>

Yeah, third for me, too. Castillo leading off is huge, not too mention his gold gloves.

Oh I totally agree with you, the Phillies would be fools to trade him off, especially to "shake things up" like phillyBurbs.com was alluding to. However, IF the Phillies front office were shopping him, you've got to take a look at what they want. The only salary dumping they'll be doing is Thome, and I just don't see how they can pull it off. Yeah, I agree. Abreu would be an incredible acquisition but I just can't see a reason why the Phillies would be willing to deal him. However, if the Cubs can lure Giles, get Lofton to keep CF warm until Pie is ready and acquire a 2B who can lead off like Castillo, their offense will be in really good shape. Question is, can they do all that? Heck, can they do any of that?

Speaking of Abreu, check out the scathing remarks about Bobby made by SI's Tom Verducci recently. I didn't realize how low is 2nd half power numbers have been. What's going on with him? http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/102-09302005-548673.html Hoops Don't know if it's playiing on his mind, but his fiance, former Miss Venezuela Alicia Machado, got caught doing the nasty with another guy on tape this summer. The steamy sex video has been all over the place. It was a major sex scandal. he was due to wed her in December. I would imagine that's gotta affect a guy's job performance. The Phillies have been saying for most of the second half that his swing changed after the HR derby. In the last couple of weeks there's been some comments in the press about him battling a leg injury of some sort, so I can't relly blame him for not legging out a triple. If the cubs can get him for something reasonable, I think you've gotta pull the trigger. This guy is consistentently good every year, he's an OBP machine with speed and power, and he's got a rocket arm. Just think of the damage he could do batting in front of DLee and Aram Edit #1Link: http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050925/SPORTS01/509250327/1002/SPORTS edit #2: Abreu's career line is .303/.411/.512 What would you consider reasonable? I think it would be fairly unreasonable to think that the Phillies would trade him period, much less for something "reasonable". I would think it would take a lot given how close the Phillies came to the playoffs this season. Now is not the time for salary-dumping in the city of brotherly love.

You don't get it? The guy will likely win his 3rd straight gold glove, he has averaged well over a .370 OBP since '99. He is a switch-hitter and would provide the Cubs with their best lead-off man since Bobby Dernier. What's not to love? Marcus Giles is a fine choice as well. But there is no reason to think that Castillo isn't right up there with him.

This quote makes it sound like you think it is a smarter move not to sign Giles. That he isn't your plan A. The thing is, when you look closely at his numbers, his production is extremely reliable. If we were putting a "huge expectation" on Huff or Ibanez, I would agree with you. But when it comes to consistency of a high level of production, Giles legitimately falls into the same catagory with Manny Ramirez, Miguel Tejada and Alex Rodriguez. Yes, all 3 of those players have different levels of ability, but each of them have produced to the same level each year for several years now. So has Brian Giles. Would you question counting heavily on Manny's production? Or Tejada's? Or A-Rod's? If not, then why question counting on Giles's? He is only a year older than Ramirez. Sure, his production may slip a little bit, but he is still the best RFer available to the Cubs this year and likely next year as well. So why wait?

I guess I disagree. If he wants 4 years, he gets 7-8 mill from me. I'd happily do 2 yrs at 9-10, with an option for a 3rd at 11 or so. RR, have you looked at Giles' numbers? Not only are they outstanding in their own right, but they are exactly what the Cubs offense has been lacking. Did I mention he bats left-handed? Has an above average arm for RF? He is a hard-nosed player who leads by example and generally keeps his mouth shut. What more do you need to hear? Now that you know that he isn't 36 or even pushing that number, the likelihood of him producing his normal numbers for the next 2-3 years goes up. So if you are still not on the Brian Giles bandWGN, then who's are you on? Who is better than Giles?

When I read that Abreu rumor, I thought the exact same thing. Wow. Just wow. Any line-up that has the players to legitimately and logically have Aramis Ramirez bat 6th is okay by me. If only... Abreu is a pipe dream. Albeit a very pleasant pipe dream. :D I know. :cry: Thus the, "if only..." Okay, enough of the sadness. Back to putting it out there that the Cubs will sign Brian Giles.

Just so I understand you, mhuber. You are saying that Giles is your number one option, your plan A, right?