Sammy Sofa

80% of his at bats have come from hitting either 6th or 7th, and they're fairly evenly distributed (although he's hit 7th more). It's similar for Aramis hitting 3rd or 4th, yet he's never complained about it. This isn't a case of Soriano being shuffled between leadoff and the middle of the order (like a few years ago) or in and out of the lineup. Basically, he comes to the park every day, and he's in the lineup either hitting 6th or 7th, which isn't a big deal. I've never heard of a player saying their mentality is entirely different hitting 6th vs. 7th, as they do when talking about hitting leadoff vs. middle of the order. And even if this does affect affect him mentally, it likely has more to do with the fact that he's no longer a focal point of the offense, as he has been his entire career. I'd argue it's pretty different from shuffling a guy between 3rd and 4th, but that's besides the point. I've also stated I don't think the issue is between batting 6th or 7th. I think the issue, in Soriano's head, is that he was still given a relatively significant amount of time hitting 5th and then shuffled back to 7th numerous times this season. I think this is fallout from having a manager making crappy lineups.

Being moved around the lineup as much as he was. I don't know the exact why's as to each player, but as I've said, I'm confident that being moved around that much would effect nearly any player. I think a large part of it is psychological/mental/whatever in regards to how it speaks to how poorly the team is being run. Quade's lineup management in general has been absurdly bad. I'm not expecting him to run out there with the exact same lineup every day, but even adjusting for injuries, days off and favorable matchups he is downright schizophrenic when it comes to constructing a lineup. I hope Fred sees this, because I remember him posting some depressingly hilarious stats about how many unique lineups Quade has used over the course of the season. That said, I'm not arguing that this was the main reason for Soriano's decline. That's mostly because of him being a flawed baseball player who is getting older. My point all along is that in a roundabout way he's "right" when he complains about the lineup switches.

Well, the bold part simply isn't true. A hitter can easily see different pitches from lineup spot to the next based on who they're hitting in front of. In this case the effect is going to be negligible. It's not like Soriano alternated between hitting in front of Pujols and Theriot. He had mediocre hitters behind him in every situation. I'm not arguing that it necessarily did have an effect on him. I wasn't sure if you were saying that specifically in regards to Soriano or in general.

Well, the bold part simply isn't true. A hitter can easily see different pitches from lineup spot to the next based on who they're hitting in front of.

I think you're reaching a bit here. Back when Lou was considering moving him from leadoff, he was pretty clear about he would hit anywhere in the lineup, but he didn't want to be juggled around. And the language barrier was still a factor. It was quite different than this: He's obviously more upset with the fact that he's batting lower in the order than the fact that he's moving around from 6th to 7th. As someone mentioned above, this looks like an athlete on the decline who hasn't accepted it. Doesn't make Soriano a bad person, and I'm sure he works just as hard no matter where he hits, but he's going to have to accept he's on the downside of his career at some point. And comparing this to Castro is a bit of a stretch too. Castro is a young player who clearly presses when he's hitting third, considering how damn good he is hitting #1 and #2. Soriano is equally bad no matter where he hits (which is basically #6 or #7 anyways, and is probably based mostly on matchups). I don't doubt he doesn't want to hit lower in the lineup, but it's my opinion that the lineup juggling is the bigger issue. When he was dropped to 6 he didn't complain, and I'd bet that if he had been dropped to 7 and left there for the most part we wouldn't have heard this, either. And no, he hasn't been "equally bad" across the 5-7 spots. And no, I don't think it's a stretch to think that almost any player, regardless of ability or skillset, is going to struggle in at least one spot if they're being bounced across at least 3 spots in the lineups for significant PA thanks to their managers crappy ability to construct a lineup.

Oh Lord.

I'll bet that if the Cardinals win the WS you can never post here again.

If I can't dance around that then you can't dance around the idea that it's very unlikely he gets asked to move in the first place. The guy won a GG in '09 as a CF at 24, and at 26 in '11 he probably had the best season of any CF in the game. Even if both of us agree that he's not great shakes as a CF and would be an excellent RF, that could be said about ANY competent CF. He's not an Andruw Jones, Van Slyke, or Mike Cameron out there in CF, but that's not going to be a good enough reason for a team to move him from CF. There's nothing to dance around. I've never said the Cubs definitely would or even should move him if they sign him; I simply presented it as a possibility. To me it's a non-issue unless Jackson shows he's worth being the fulltime starter in CF. Even if that occurs it's still a non-issue to me if they sign Kemp because if they want to move him to RF they'll just do it.

Look, you can dance around it all you want but Kemp isn't some kind of special case when it comes to refusing to move to a new position. If the team he's signed with wants him to switch positions he doesn't somehow have more leverage than the other people being listed. You ask "what choice did those guys have?" as if Kemp would have a choice. If he signs with the Cubs and then they tell him they're moving him to RF for the good of the team, boom, it's done. It's also not like he's putting up numbers that hinge on him being in CF for him to be an AS.

Yeah, how dare we lose consecutive games to the last two teams to win a Super Bowl. FOR SHAME. loll Have you been watching the last two games? Our team offensively is garbage with no end in sight. 2007ish bad. So far our offense has not looked any worse this year than last year. Need to go on a bit of a run here but we can do it. Saw some good things today. The O-Line was much better, and no injuries in this game that I'm aware of. As for the phantom holding call, I also think the flag was thrown while the ball was still in the air. Hopefully Larry Mayer will have an answer for us as I'm sure this question will be asked in this week's Chalk Talk. cv is shellshocked from his Patriots' losing like he did today, so he can be forgiven not paying that much attention to the Bears.

Well then keep in mind that you're the one calling it a drastic change. I'm calling it an unlikely one. It takes extraordinary circumstance to move an in their prime established star. What if his reply to "we've got this Jackson kid doing well in CF" is "who the f is Jackson?" Why wouldn't he just pick the team who says "hey, you're kicking ass and taking names as a CF. You're a big guy so there's the chance we move you off of there late in the contract, but for now you're our CF through and through?" As far as before, I was not brushing what you said aside. I was giving context to what you said. Cabrera wasn't moved for the hell of moving him. Cabrera was moved because he refused to stay in shape and generally had crap habits as a young player that cost him the lean body he came into the league with. He has only now started cutting the crap. ARod was moved because the SS on the team who could afford to pick up the largest player contract in sports history happened to be the game's other premier SS, and that team's franchise player. Nothing like that is fitting with the circumstance of Kemp's maybe move upon joining the Cubs. Cabrera, Dunn and ARod being moved were not "extraordinary" circumstances. I'm sorry, they just weren't. The only thing remotely "extraordinary" about any of them is that ARod was moved instead of an obviously inferior SS. And regardless of all of your reasoning you're ignoring the key point; all of those players could have refused or made a stink or whatever you think Kemp will do. It's not like gaining weight suddenly meant that Cabrera had to just accept a move from 3B. Dunn didn't have to accept being moved from the OF to 1B. ARod didn't have to accept being moved from SS to 3B. Yet they all did. It's not like Kemp has something that would make him an exception in that type of situation. If he signs with the Cubs and they want him to play RF he'll play RF. Look, maybe Kemp is the type of guy who values playing CF more than anything and he would turn down the biggest deal being offered just to ensure he stays there instead of moving to RF. I sincerely doubt that he is (I sincerely doubt almost any player is). If the Cubs are offering the best deal out there and their only "catch" is that they want him to play RF instead of CF I would be very surprised if he turned it down and took less money and/or fewer years to play somewhere else. Money is what talks, not playing CF instead of RF, especially when the player can easily play either spot.

I'm really curious as to why you think sliding from CF to RF is such a drastic change (especially for someone who arguably projects better defensively from a corner OF spot as opposed to CF). I also don't know why you would think it would such a huge slight for the Cubs to approach this like, "hey, Matt, we're paying you this ginormous contract and you're hitting between Starlin Castro and Prince Fielder. We've got this Jackson kid doing well in CF while we've got a glaring hole in RF that you'd be perfect for with your offensive output and defensive ability. How about you slide over there?"

Uh, what hold?

Yes but he moved bc no one thought he was a good 2B defensively. He was a reeeeeaaaaallllyy obviously bad 2B. I thought it was also because they already had Vidro and nowhere else to put him.

Cabrera ate and drank himself off of 3B. ARod moved for a fellow future HOF. Dunn shouldn't even be in the conversation. Anyway, who would the Cubs be moving Kemp to RF for? Brett Jackson? Put yourself in Kemps shoes and ask why he'd do that for some rookie/2nd year? Wait, wait, wait...how can you just brush off any of those? You talk like they all had no choice in the matter and just had to take it but then turn around and talk like teams will have tiptoe around Kemp and kowtow to his demands or else he'll...what? He'll do it because the team who signed him is asking/telling him to do so and because he's just sliding from CF to RF, hardly some kind of astronomical leap and not nearly as unusual as you were thinking, as this thread has shown.

Who the [expletive] is Clutts?

OK, that there's the weekly breaking point; I now bizarrely want the Bears to lose.

Agh, I thought Geo had his first GS for split-second there.

Players move off the skill positions as they get older all the time. Ernie Banks & Cal Ripken immediately come to mind as guys that moved from SS to 1B and 3B, respectively. Mickey Mantle got moved all over the diamond after he turned 30. Plenty of other HOF caliber players, too. If they can move, so can Kemp. Bottom line is I don't think he'll complain if the Cubs have a better fielding CF and they are paying him $15+M per year. Oh, I'm totally with you on this. I'm just trying to clarify what I think he was asking for.

Probably because he wants to stay here. Sounds like if the Cubs succeed in signing a big name FA he'd happily come back, and probably for below what he could get elsewhere.

I think Monsters vs. Monster is talking about players who were switched in their prime as opposed to early in their careers.

Maybe they figured the diabetes got rid of the lazy parts or something.

I guess Miguel Cabrera would be the modern poster child for that. Dunn would be another example (before the whole DH debacle). Plus there's ARod going to the Yankees.

It is pretty baffling how Aramis was inserted into that rant. I'd be curious to see how this guy can explain how Aramis and Soriano are so similar in how they haven't "created a winning atmosphere." $100 says the words "lazy" and "selfish" and "doesn't/don't care" are involved.

Pretty sure he never said that. Wasn't it pretty much the exact opposite? He definitely said he preferred to lead off, but ultimately he'd hit wherever they settled on wanting him to hit.