CardsFanInChiTown

It's like the Seinfield episode where George does all this crap trying to get fired by the Yankees, but the Yankees for some reason don't fire him. Hendry is doing his darndest to go out in a ball of flames, but the Cubs are too stupid to see it. Honestly I thought he did a bad job last offseason but he was good before that so I didn't think much of it. But IMO I think offseason has been far worse - the Cubs have spent a lot of money with nothing really to show for it. I'm not trolling, I'm shocked that this is happening. I use to think Hendry was a good GM.

Being serious. How did Hendry start sucking so fast? I use to think he was a good GM. Its like he started taking stupid pills.

Well he could play CF next year if Pie isn't ready. He could be OK as a CF. Anyone? Trying to help here...

So when does Prior become a FA?

That is a distortion of the truth. While I would say it is unwise to think of him as a lock for 180 innings, he has done it. In 2003, at age 21 by the way, he threw 189 between AAA (57) and the major leagues (131). This year, between AAA, Chicago and SF he was at 177, and did not miss the 180 mark because of health. It's been more of a readiness issue with him. He just turned 24. I just read a scouting report saying he wasn't durable and he needs to work on conditioning then I looked up his innings pitched per year and I thought he must have been injured. My mistake.

Because 180 innings of good performance (Williams) is almost certainly better than 80 innings of great performance (Lidge) + 100 innings of replacement-level performance. So then Bob, you're saying if you were the Phillies you would take Williams over Lidge? That is what you're saying right? Just want to make sure I understand you correctly. I suppose it would depend on who Williams or Lidge would be bumping from the rotation and bullpen, respectively. (And I'm not fully up to speed on their pitching situation to make that call at this point.) I will say, however, that a team would have to have a pretty good starting rotation (or absolutely atrocious bullpen) to nullify the IP value that Williams brings to the table. One other thing, Williams has never pitched 180 innings because he can't stay healthy. He threw over 180 in '03, and nearly 180 this year between the Major Leagues and AAA. 03 you must be adding minors? I didn't know he was in the minor last year. What is your source? I'm not asking because I don't believe you but I want a good website to check minor league stats.

Because 180 innings of good performance (Williams) is almost certainly better than 80 innings of great performance (Lidge) + 100 innings of replacement-level performance. So then Bob, you're saying if you were the Phillies you would take Williams over Lidge? That is what you're saying right? Just want to make sure I understand you correctly. I suppose it would depend on who Williams or Lidge would be bumping from the rotation and bullpen, respectively. (And I'm not fully up to speed on their pitching situation to make that call at this point.) I will say, however, that a team would have to have a pretty good starting rotation (or absolutely atrocious bullpen) to nullify the IP value that Williams brings to the table. One other thing, Williams has never pitched 180 innings because he can't stay healthy.

Because 180 innings of good performance (Williams) is almost certainly better than 80 innings of great performance (Lidge) + 100 innings of replacement-level performance. Yes, but it's easier to find average starters than relief aces.

You still have to consider how much value they're actually going to bring though. To use an extreme example, would you trade an average second baseman for a dominant pinch hitter(assuming you were forced to keep him on the bench)? That's the point I'm getting at. Again, I understand your point however it's much eaiser to replace an avg starter than it would a relief ace like Lidge. Therefore I would value him more. And your right that is an extreme example - the gap between a pitch hitter and an everyday 2B is MUCH larger than a starter and reliever. Plus I don't think everyone has the makeup to be a closer so that also has value (I understand some people don't agree with this and that's fine).

WHAT?!? Williams is at least as valuable as Lidge? Please, let's hear this argument... Williams(or other SP) is going to pitch 3 times as many innings as Lidge will in a given season. Therefore, even though his performance isn't as dominant as Lidge's, he's worth more to the team because the quantity outweighs the marginal difference in quality. Wow. Only here could Williams be classified with Lidge. The tradition of WAY overvaluing Cubs players and prospects is alive and well. So, your logic is that Williams is as valuable as Lidge because of the innings he eats? I guess the same could be said for Rusch as well then, right? And, the suggestion that there is only a marginal difference in quality is a joke. In around 50 less innings, Lidge won only two fewer games than Williams, struck out many more hitters, had a much lower ERA, and a considerably lower WHIP in 2005. All is true for their 3 year averages, as well. Yes, Williams is younger. No, he isn't (in any way, shape, or form) comparable to one of the most dominant closers in the game. You really wouldn't trade Williams for Lidge? You'd be crazy. Williams is a dime a dozen. Lidge is one of about 4 or 5. Several teams have a Williams. Very few have a Lidge. People here really wouldn't trade Williams for Lidge? :roll: It's not just Williams, it's any starter of a certain ability. There's a reason that Lidge was behind Suppan and Maddux in Win Shares; or that he was 100th among pitchers in VORP, trailing Vazquez by a hair. Lidge is an outstanding reliever, one of the best. But he can only dominate for 70 or so innings. On the whole, someone who can give you pretty good production for 200 or so will be more valuable, whether that's Jerome Williams, Jeff Suppan, or Kirk Saarloos. It's also about precieved value, there isn't a GM in baseball that would rather have Williams over Lidge. Besides guys like Lidge are A LOT harder to find than Williams. I thought you weren't in to VORP. Aren't rate stats your thing anyway? I wasn't talking about perceived value, obviously most teams would jump at the concept of trading someone like Williams for Lidge, although as Blueheart pointed out, it doesn't make sense with the current Cubs team. And yes, I'm a big rate stats guy. But when you're comparing a starter to a reliever, where the differennce in playing time can be 3x as many as the other player, cumulative stats are necessary to illustrate the actual value the reliever has. A difference between 200+ innings and 70+ innings is much different than Tejada playing 160 games and Ramirez playing 140, which was the topic earlier when I preferred rate stats. I understansd the more innings point but I'll take a dominant relief ace over an average starter any day. Dominant players at their respective positions are hard to find.

That was an excellent trade for Hendry. No question.

WHAT?!? Williams is at least as valuable as Lidge? Please, let's hear this argument... Williams(or other SP) is going to pitch 3 times as many innings as Lidge will in a given season. Therefore, even though his performance isn't as dominant as Lidge's, he's worth more to the team because the quantity outweighs the marginal difference in quality. Wow. Only here could Williams be classified with Lidge. The tradition of WAY overvaluing Cubs players and prospects is alive and well. So, your logic is that Williams is as valuable as Lidge because of the innings he eats? I guess the same could be said for Rusch as well then, right? And, the suggestion that there is only a marginal difference in quality is a joke. In around 50 less innings, Lidge won only two fewer games than Williams, struck out many more hitters, had a much lower ERA, and a considerably lower WHIP in 2005. All is true for their 3 year averages, as well. Yes, Williams is younger. No, he isn't (in any way, shape, or form) comparable to one of the most dominant closers in the game. You really wouldn't trade Williams for Lidge? You'd be crazy. Williams is a dime a dozen. Lidge is one of about 4 or 5. Several teams have a Williams. Very few have a Lidge. People here really wouldn't trade Williams for Lidge? :roll: I would not trade Williams for Lidge on this current team. The Cubs need to add starting pitching (and offense). The bullpen has a surplus of arms. Lidge isn't needed on this team however, he would be a welcomed addition on most staffs. Frankly, I think the Astros are considering selling Lidge while his value is still high. If the latter part of the season/playoffs are any indication, he isn't as rock solid as one believed (especially not in big games). IIRC, the Cubs got to him twice last year including the end of the year and we all know he was less than dependable in the NLCS & WS. I would trade for him in a second than turn around deal him for someone a heck of a lot better than Williams. This is crazy talk.

WHAT?!? Williams is at least as valuable as Lidge? Please, let's hear this argument... Williams(or other SP) is going to pitch 3 times as many innings as Lidge will in a given season. Therefore, even though his performance isn't as dominant as Lidge's, he's worth more to the team because the quantity outweighs the marginal difference in quality. Wow. Only here could Williams be classified with Lidge. The tradition of WAY overvaluing Cubs players and prospects is alive and well. So, your logic is that Williams is as valuable as Lidge because of the innings he eats? I guess the same could be said for Rusch as well then, right? And, the suggestion that there is only a marginal difference in quality is a joke. In around 50 less innings, Lidge won only two fewer games than Williams, struck out many more hitters, had a much lower ERA, and a considerably lower WHIP in 2005. All is true for their 3 year averages, as well. Yes, Williams is younger. No, he isn't (in any way, shape, or form) comparable to one of the most dominant closers in the game. You really wouldn't trade Williams for Lidge? You'd be crazy. Williams is a dime a dozen. Lidge is one of about 4 or 5. Several teams have a Williams. Very few have a Lidge. People here really wouldn't trade Williams for Lidge? :roll: It's not just Williams, it's any starter of a certain ability. There's a reason that Lidge was behind Suppan and Maddux in Win Shares; or that he was 100th among pitchers in VORP, trailing Vazquez by a hair. Lidge is an outstanding reliever, one of the best. But he can only dominate for 70 or so innings. On the whole, someone who can give you pretty good production for 200 or so will be more valuable, whether that's Jerome Williams, Jeff Suppan, or Kirk Saarloos. It's also about precieved value, there isn't a GM in baseball that would rather have Williams over Lidge. Besides guys like Lidge are A LOT harder to find than Williams. I thought you weren't in to VORP. Aren't rate stats your thing anyway?

I think they'd be wise to at least throw a semi-decent offer out there. If Philly rejects it, that forces Houston to up its' offer. Even if we don't land him and don't expect to, I think it would be wise to make Houston pay as much as it can if they land him. If Lidge really is on the table I don't think the Cubs can match the Astros.

I really think Weaver is undervalued and gets a reasonable deal. One word: Boras I read he'll accept arb if he doesn't get a good deal. Boras can only do so much. Weaver isn't going to command huge money. Besides, the Cubs have a decent working relationship with Boras; he's the agent for both Zambrano and Maddux (he's also Corey's agent and I don't see him having much leverage for him in the near future). He'll get more than Matt Morris's 3\27.

Albert Bell John Rocker

I really think Weaver is undervalued and gets a reasonable deal. One word: Boras I read he'll accept arb if he doesn't get a good deal. Weaver declined arb this morning. Rotoworld: Whoops, thanks.

I really think Weaver is undervalued and gets a reasonable deal. One word: Boras I read he'll accept arb if he doesn't get a good deal.

I wonder what the yankee's paid.

That's right and if you read those quotes they both say the Cardinals are still in the running for JJ. :wink: :lol: Yeah, it was a real double whammy - the Cubs get him and we don't! I felt a rush of joy...

Dude, I love that speed in the 2 hole. Thinking about what you love in the 2 hole is just about as disgusting as this report concerning Jones :x :oops:

Blueheart05, you're a buzz kill! :lol:

Dude, I love that speed in the 2 hole.

I think if this happens it's pretty safe to say the Cubs offseason has been a bust.

Would you trade Williams for Lidge?